League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[welshbairn]

17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

No, it's not.

It's to say that it's wrong to relegate a team that hasn't been given the chance to avoid it.

Predictions of future results are irrelevant.

Hearts had 30 games to avoid it when the league was unexpectedly concluded. Unfortunate, but they put themselves in that position, nobody else's fault, except for maybe a Chinese bat.

[invergowrie arab]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Yip. In a competition where everyone started believing they had 38.

Having 30 games to get off the bottom was never the deal. You know that fine well and I'm now pretty sure you can be dismissed as a troll.

If we played 38 games and Hearts finished 10th but the SPFL decided to relegate Hearts anyway as they were bottom after 30 games you would have a point.

But the league will be 30 games long and Hearts were bottom of the league at the end of the season.

Yes, no one knew that at the start but we didn't know a lot of things at the start of the season so stop mewling.

 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Coventry Saint said:

1)The respective level of financial harm inflicted on a club really shouldn't be coming into this, though. 2) You should have been prepping for possible relegation in December. 3) But, like I said before, the pervading arrogance of Hearts fans about suddenly becoming decent is the underlying thread here.

Yes, you will lose more than Dundee, but only in a financial sense, not in a sporting sense. Which brings us back to Budge claiming you should be saved because you've spent loads. Which is obviously arse.

1) My goodness. What a bizarre thing to say.

2) What does that mean? Players have contracts. Clubs have staff. Hearts have a duty to try to avoid relegation rather than just set up for it.

3) Absolutely not. I've never suggested Hearts would win a single game. My point is that relegating a club without giving them the opportunity to play the games is ethically wrong. That's why I don't engage in discussions of form etc. It's irrelevant to the topic. I've seen a couple of St Mirren fans suggest similar things, and I think that's more based on a chip on the shoulder from your point of view.

 

[The DA]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Yip. And that exceptional circumstance is not one Hearts should be punished for.

Hearts have been denied 20% of the season to keep themselves up.

As my dad used to say, never bet on a horse to do what they haven't shown themselves capable of doing so far.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Hearts had 30 games to avoid it when the league was unexpectedly concluded. Unfortunate, but they put themselves in that position, nobody else's fault, except for maybe a Chinese bat.

Not sure how many people are going to go down this logically indefensible route.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, The DA said:

As my dad used to say, never bet on a horse to do what they haven't shown themselves capable of doing so far.

Completely irrelevant.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

If we played 38 games and Hearts finished 10th but the SPFL decided to relegate Hearts anyway as they were bottom after 30 games you would have a point.

But the league will be 30 games long and Hearts were bottom of the league at the end of the season.

Yes, no one knew that at the start but we didn't know a lot of things at the start of the season so stop mewling.

 

Exactly. So nobody should be relegated.

[Dunning1874]

16 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

If the season isn't finished as per a 38-game season, there is a clear point that Hearts have been denied the chance to save themselves and should not have to face the consequences of relegation.

That's a very simple point to understand and nobody has yet provided an argument for why Hearts should suffer this. Not one based on anything other than 'yooz ur rubbish so deserve to go down', which is a position devoid of logic.

Yes, Hearts are being denied the chance to save themselves over the remaining 8 games. That's not fair and finishing the season like this is not a perfect solution.

However, there is no solution which is not imperfect and unfair to some clubs. Calling the season as it is has an element of unfairness to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer, but abandoning promotion and relegation would be considerably more unfair on Dundee United, Raith and Cove, with one plan based on sporting merit and the other being entirely arbitrary. League reconstruction would also simply shift the unfairness onto other clubs, regardless of what system you go for, with arbitrary decisions on what positions gets you in what division being made at the drop of the hat with no clubs having had prior knowledge of this.

We're in an unprecedented situation where an unfair and imperfect solution is impossible to avoid. The question then is how do we find the most practical and least unfair solution for everyone. That inevitably brings us back to the argument that sporting merit has to be used, and if someone has to suffer in some way it's only right that the clubs who are bottom of their divisions on sporting merit are the ones who have to.

It's clearly the best solution. The only reason you can't see this is because it's your club involved and, understandably, you want the solution that's best for Hearts rather than being able to detach yourself and look at what's fairest overall.

[The DA]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

Completely irrelevant.

Would Hearts have saved themselves over 38 games?  Were they keeping their powder dry, waiting for a chance to go on a wee unbeaten run after the split?

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, The DA said:

Would Hearts have saved themselves over 38 games?  Were they keeping their powder dry, waiting for a chance to go on a wee unbeaten run after the split?

Completely irrelevant.

The point is that they are not being given the chance. Relegation should simply not happen this season.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

Not sure how many people are going to go down this logically indefensible route.

So long as you fail to put up a logical counter argument. You won't get relegated anyway, the fix is in, unless Budge is daft enough to blow it by insisting on a temporary restructuring only, just to save your skins.

[Guest JTS98]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

So long as you fail to put up a logical counter argument. You won't get relegated anyway, the fix is in, unless Budge is daft enough to blow it by insisting on a temporary restructuring only, just to save your skins.

A temporary restructuring is quite clearly the most logical thing to do.

1) Everyone agrees that the situation is exceptional. So it calls for an exceptional solution.

2) Most people at the beginning of this agreed that it was important to protect the clubs and the league. Imposing the consequences of relegation on a club without the chance to play 20% of the season goes completely against that spirit. A more equitable solution is to divide the money slightly more thinly between all the clubs next season and then move back to normal.

3) It may well be to 'save Hearts' skins'. But Hearts have had the chance to do that on the field taken away from them, so you can't possibly be surprised that they're doing it off the field instead.

Edited May 8, 2020 by JTS98

[Zing.]

11 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

That is a post devoid of logic.

1) Exceptional circumstances indeed. All the more reason to protect clubs from them rather than imposing relegation with 20% of the games left to play, wouldn't you agree?

2) You can repeat that Hearts 'deserve' it as many times as you like. But it is simply irrelevant. A team is relegated when they can no longer get enough points to finish 11th. A club denied the opportunity to do that do not deserve relegation.

That's just a post straight out of Hibs.net. There's a reason I avoid Kickback. You might want to give .net a miss.

1) There are no games left to play. The season is done. You are 12th.

2) You can no longer get enough points to finish 11th. The season is finished, this is very relevant and I suggest you take the time to really let that point sink in. 

3) Hibs.net is fucking awful and simply because you don’t agree doesn’t mean my post lacks logic or sense. 

[Sparticus]

4 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yes, Hearts are being denied the chance to save themselves over the remaining 8 games. That's not fair and finishing the season like this is not a perfect solution.

However, there is no solution which is not imperfect and unfair to some clubs. Calling the season as it is has an element of unfairness to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer, but abandoning promotion and relegation would be considerably more unfair on Dundee United, Raith and Cove, with one plan based on sporting merit and the other being entirely arbitrary. League reconstruction would also simply shift the unfairness onto other clubs, regardless of what system you go for, with arbitrary decisions on what positions gets you in what division being made at the drop of the hat with no clubs having had prior knowledge of this.

We're in an unprecedented situation where an unfair and imperfect solution is impossible to avoid. The question then is how do we find the most practical and least unfair solution for everyone. That inevitably brings us back to the argument that sporting merit has to be used, and if someone has to suffer in some way it's only right that the clubs who are bottom of their divisions on sporting merit are the ones who have to.

It's clearly the best solution. The only reason you can't see this is because it's your club involved and, understandably, you want the solution that's best for Hearts rather than being able to detach yourself and look at what's fairest overall.

Perfectly illustrated.

[RossBFaeDundee]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

So long as you fail to put up a logical counter argument. You won't get relegated anyway, the fix is in, unless Budge is daft enough to blow it by insisting on a temporary restructuring only, just to save your skins.

I mean I'm pretty certain already there'll be no reconstruction, considering the constant outpouring of doubt and the wish for the majority of teams in the Prem to just get on with it and away from this pish.

[craigkillie]

There are 12 places in the Premiership next season as it stands, and the clubs which take these have to be decided somehow. If we assume that the top 10 clubs are set in stone, then we're basically looking at places 11 and 12.

You can then ask the following questions.

What was the probability of Hamilton staying up? What was the probability of Hearts staying up? What was the probability of Dundee United being promoted? What was the probability of Inverness being promoted?

If you rank them in order, it would almost certainly be:

Dundee United
Hamilton
Hearts
Inverness

Therefore the outcome we see is the fairest outcome - we've got the clubs with the most opportunity of playing in the league next season under ordinary circumstances.

Otherwise you're denying Dundee United or Hamilton their income and the opportunity for European qualification through the league and everything else you suggested.

[Zing.]

7 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yes, Hearts are being denied the chance to save themselves over the remaining 8 games. That's not fair and finishing the season like this is not a perfect solution.

However, there is no solution which is not imperfect and unfair to some clubs. Calling the season as it is has an element of unfairness to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer, but abandoning promotion and relegation would be considerably more unfair on Dundee United, Raith and Cove, with one plan based on sporting merit and the other being entirely arbitrary. League reconstruction would also simply shift the unfairness onto other clubs, regardless of what system you go for, with arbitrary decisions on what positions gets you in what division being made at the drop of the hat with no clubs having had prior knowledge of this.

We're in an unprecedented situation where an unfair and imperfect solution is impossible to avoid. The question then is how do we find the most practical and least unfair solution for everyone. That inevitably brings us back to the argument that sporting merit has to be used, and if someone has to suffer in some way it's only right that the clubs who are bottom of their divisions on sporting merit are the ones who have to.

It's clearly the best solution. The only reason you can't see this is because it's your club involved and, understandably, you want the solution that's best for Hearts rather than being able to detach yourself and look at what's fairest overall.

This is a good post. Logical and makes perfect sense. Maybe not fair but life’s not fair 

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Zing. said:

1) There are no games left to play. The season is done. You are 12th.

2) You can no longer get enough points to finish 11th. The season is finished, this is very relevant and I suggest you take the time to really let that point sink in. 

3) Hibs.net is fucking awful and simply because you don’t agree doesn’t mean my post lacks logic or sense. 

I'm afraid it does lack logic and sense in the context of this discussion.

I refuse to believe that if we weren't discussing Hearts you would say that Club X being relegated, losing 20% of their income, laying off staff and losing considerable status based on a season that had 20% of its games left to play was fair.

It's simply indefensible. But it's Hearts, so you'll try to make the mental contortions necessary. Sadly, you don't have any arguments for it.

THE SEASON IS OVER ACCEPT IT is not a logical or sensible argument.

[Guest JTS98]

7 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

There are 12 places in the Premiership next season as it stands, and the clubs which take these have to be decided somehow. If we assume that the top 10 clubs are set in stone, then we're basically looking at places 11 and 12.

You can then ask the following questions.

What was the probability of Hamilton staying up? What was the probability of Hearts staying up? What was the probability of Dundee United being promoted? What was the probability of Inverness being promoted?

If you rank them in order, it would almost certainly be:

Dundee United
Hamilton
Hearts
Inverness

Therefore the outcome we see is the fairest outcome - we've got the clubs with the most opportunity of playing in the league next season under ordinary circumstances.

Otherwise you're denying Dundee United or Hamilton their income and the opportunity for European qualification through the league and everything else you suggested.

Again, you've omitted or failed to grasp the concept of harm.

Having something taken from you is worse than being denied a potential gain.

I do not expect Hearts to be saved. We will be relegated. I think Hearts' bargaining position has been wrong from the start and we should have emphasised just doing the right thing to be good guys as a fitba community.

The only thing I object to on this thread are the intellectually bankrupt attempts to justify what is a self-interest based decision from Premiership clubs who want the money for the top flight split 12 ways instead of 14. That's why reconstruction won't happen, even though a 14-team top flight for next season would actually be the fairest thing to do and could even work in a shortened form of the play-offs Championship clubs are entitled to.

Of course, there's no way St Mirren or Accies vote for that. But it would be fairest.

Edited May 8, 2020 by JTS98

[Zing.]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I'm afraid it does lack logic and sense in the context of this discussion.

I refuse to believe that if we weren't discussing Hearts you would say that Club X being relegated, losing 20% of their income, laying off staff and losing considerable status based on a season that had 20% of its games left to play was fair.

It's simply indefensible. But it's Hearts, so you'll try to make the mental contortions necessary. Sadly, you don't have any arguments for it.

THE SEASON IS OVER ACCEPT IT is not a logical or sensible argument.

Any team in the same situation would be getting the same kind of posts from me unfortunately. You can choose to not believe that but it’s absolutely the case.

Im not coming at this from a bitter peg selling hobo standpoint. Simply look at how many fans of other clubs on here are of the opinion that Hearts going down is the only viable option in these circumstances. 

Reconstruction or nothing for you, although that could also be unfair to a number of clubs throughout the leagues.