League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[kingjoey]

I’ve seen quite a few comments around “Scottish football is the laughing stock of Europe”. Quite telling that on yesterday’s Sportsound podcast, when Martin O’Neill was asked about his take on what has been going on in the last few months with Scottish football, he said that he knew nothing until he had asked Chick Young to fill him in with the details. We are not the laughing stock that some people imply, because very few people outside of Scotland can be bothered to find out what happens here. It isn’t even reported on in England. 

[Roy McGregor brown stuff]

3 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

That's not quite true.

The vote ended the lower leagues and gave the board the power to end the Premiership. The board just didn't end it until they had consulted the top flight sides.

This x100 which is why Thistle have the stronger case if court case heard & finished by end of next week!! Which of course we know it won’t. 
 

Cannot be bothered going back over it with the school kids from last night again but Hearts have a different plan of action & that’s to cause complete & utter chaos even if their case was to fail. 
 

No way the league will restart as it stands on 1/8 as court hearing won’t be completed (along with possible subsequent court appeals) by that point. 
 

Hearts aren’t due to start their league, as it stands, until at least mid Oct. They’re able to survive to that point. Others won’t and that’s a well known fact. 
 

High stakes poker and as I did say last night, the SPFL/clubs have continually kicked the can so far down the road for this to cause chaos for season 2020/21.

 

David Winnie ex St Mirren and Hearts a good read on this. I’m also told that there has been 3rd Party contact to one of the clubs taking SPFL to court today (maybe both).
 

The SPFL are resembling the UK Govt re Covid. They knew it was coming but now it’s here they’ve no idea what to do for the best. A lot of chairmen brown trousers i’d imagine especially in premiership. 

[Roy McGregor brown stuff]

11 minutes ago, Booker-T said:

but how much money is it worth?

Obviously for micro clubs like Hamilton it matters but for Aberdeen, Hibs type clubs, is it a meaningful difference?

Hibs are in a bad way (By no ways the worst). Just got rid of vast majority of their coaching staff. Anything that gives Hibs an extra couple of quid in their coffers at the moment is going to make a meaningful difference.

[kingjoey]

39 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53076970

Scottish football's going down the pan apparently.

If that's how he feels then maybe he should encourage the SPFL and member clubs not to pursue piss poor proposals such as 14 team leagues.

He is an idiot. I remember him saying a month or so ago that the SPFL should have finished last season’s matches regardless, without realising that it was utterly impossible to do so.

[Dons_1988]

15 minutes ago, Booker-T said:

but how much money is it worth?

Obviously for micro clubs like Hamilton it matters but for Aberdeen, Hibs type clubs, is it a meaningful difference?

Given you've quoted me from March I can't remember the context in which I said that, so apologies.

But you're right, it's less significant for us. We only give the OF 1,800 max I think, so clearly not as significant as it is to a club that gives over a large part of their stadium.

7 minutes ago, Roy McGregor brown stuff said:

This x100 which is why Thistle have the stronger case if court case heard & finished by end of next week!! Which of course we know it won’t. 
 

Cannot be bothered going back over it with the school kids from last night again but Hearts have a different plan of action & that’s to cause complete & utter chaos even if their case was to fail. 
 

No way the league will restart as it stands on 1/8 as court hearing won’t be completed (along with possible subsequent court appeals) by that point. 
 

Hearts aren’t due to start their league, as it stands, until at least mid Oct. They’re able to survive to that point. Others won’t and that’s a well known fact. 
 

High stakes poker and as I did say last night, the SPFL/clubs have continually kicked the can so far down the road for this to cause chaos for season 2020/21.

 

David Winnie ex St Mirren and Hearts a good read on this. I’m also told that there has been 3rd Party contact to one of the clubs taking SPFL to court today (maybe both).
 

The SPFL are resembling the UK Govt re Covid. They knew it was coming but now it’s here they’ve no idea what to do for the best. A lot of chairmen brown trousers i’d imagine especially in premiership. 

I don't know what any of this means.

[Aim Here]

10 minutes ago, Roy McGregor brown stuff said:

No way the league will restart as it stands on 1/8 as court hearing won’t be completed (along with possible subsequent court appeals) by that point.

The league might well not restart in August, but that'll be up to the coronavirus and the Scottish government, not Hearts and their lawyers.

You don't even know what sort of redress Hearts are going for, so this bold claims of injunctions seems far-fetched - at best.

Hearts won't get an injunction if they're asking for the season to be played out - because one look at them assenting to the season end decision, and the bare facts of the coronavirus lockdown would make the prima facie case very weak, compared to the harm done to the league. You won't get an injunction to stop thousands of people working on the offchance that someone's lawyers might concoct a novel legal theory that might scrape a court victory. And asking the Scottish Court of Session to unilaterally reshape the Scottish league system is even more of a long shot.

About the only thing that might make sense is asking for compensation, and if they're asking for money, they don't have any cause to delay the league and stop the SPFL earning the money to pay Hearts.

I suspect Hearts won't make any attempt to call for an injunction to halt Scottish football being played.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aim Here

[Pet Jeden]

2 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

He is an idiot. I remember him saying a month or so ago that the SPFL should have finished last season’s matches regardless, without realising that it was utterly impossible to do so.

Difficult? Yes. Uncertain? Yes.

Utterly impossible? No.

[MacArab]

1 hour ago, welldaft said:

This may have been mentioned before but if I were the SPFL I would be deducting any legal fees incurred from Hearts and Partick. 

You hope for a speedy outcome either way but if this rumbles on then it will cost 100 of thousands and a fair whack from each member club. 

I did favour reconstruction of some sort but I am one of those that are starting to think Hearts are becoming a pain in the arse. Budge is seeking to deflect from her numerous shortcomings and failure to appoint a semi decent manager. 

I am sure they don’t give a toss but if this does impact leagues starting and cause even more financial pain for other clubs then the damage will be irretrievable. They will be the new Rangers and fans and custodians of other clubs will not forget in a hurry. 

I have stayed largely out of this debate until now, and am sure that I will not be stating anything new here, however, I am sick and tired of listening to how unfair it is for Hearts, and having their own holier than thou, self invested and self interested sympathisers  howling about how unfair it all is, over every social media platform they can find.

Sometimes life is just not fair. Ask the half a million people who’s lives have been ended early by this thing, which has simply hastened Heart’s inevitable relegation, whether it is fair, and that might put a bit of perspective on the injustice Hearts feel has been dished out to them..

It is not the fault of all the other clubs, that Hearts ended up dead bottom of the pile, when things were prematurely and correctly ended, having played the same number of games as everyone else, (many of whom had vastly inferior budgets), despite having spunked millions up against the wall on duds, and wrong managerial choices over the last 2 seasons. They were following exactly the same pattern we did in the 2015/16 season, where we threw money at utter shite, both on the park and on the touch line,  in a desperate attempt to paper over the cracks, and which lead to our deserved relegation, and I have little doubt that had the season concluded, Hearts would have ended up the same way we did.

Hearts’ sole reason for kicking up a fuss like  this is based purely on self interest, and what is most astonishing to me, is that they appear to be completely at a loss as to why other clubs have the audacity to look after themselves and their supporters in the same way.

I fail to believe that if it was St Mirren or Accies that ended bottom, that even 1 solitary Jambo would give even the slightest of flying fucks about the injustice of their plight, and would like the rest of us be looking forward to enjoying football again on the 1st of August, and would be in exactly the same “Ahh well , shit happens” mode that the rest of us are in just now.

Having been starved of our football for so long, I would expect that any remaining sympathy for the unfortunate position Hearts have found themselves in would disappear amongst the rest of Scottish football, if they attempted to stop the rest of the game from moving on, just because they believe they should still be in the Premier league.

I can’t see how them stoping the league from starting is in the best interests of Scottish football.

[Romeo]

1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

Difficult? Yes. Uncertain? Yes.

Utterly impossible? No.

 

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

Difficult? Yes. Uncertain? Yes.

Utterly impossible? No.

Maybe not impossible, but totally impractical and senseless to wait 3/4 months to see if we could maybe finish it.

I can't believe it's still being discussed. 

[kingjoey]

21 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Difficult? Yes. Uncertain? Yes.

Utterly impossible? No.

Ok. With the government restrictions in place meaning that the first possible, but not definite, date that top league matches in Scotland can be played is 1st August, how would you suggest that the remaining matches could be played and Scotland’s European representatives  be given to UEFA in time for the qualifying rounds of next season’s competitions?

Edit: The qualifiers for Scottish clubs start on 27th August.

Edited June 17, 2020 by kingjoey

[wastecoatwilly]

3 hours ago, Bazil85 said:

I agree but the merit is only for Celtic and Rangers, it isn't going to produce a bunch of players far better than what we have available in the current Scotland squad and that's what we need. We need players that are better by some distance than the general standard of Celtic and them having a colt team won't produce that, it may provide a few homegrown quality players to save them in the transfer market but they aren't going to develop in mass players better than Eduard, Brown, Rogic, etc which is the level we need to be producing. Tierney has developed to a very decent standard playing from a young age against much better opponents than L2, it further cements that generally better players need a higher level. 

And the difference the last three years has been incomparable. Robertson only played for QP for one season, he isn't a basis for colt teams working, he's very much an exception and a player that fell down lower than he needed to. Also who's to say playing with seasoned pros also didn't contribute to his development at that stage? That's not something the Colts will get. 

It gets to the stage where with everyone needing to improve at international level it must be something else & that is collectively we don't have a strong enough team at international level. We need Robertson, McTominey, Fletcher to be the standard not the exceptions. Christie and Forrest are no where near good enough for where we need Scotland to be (either are most of the English league players that get in the squad), that shows in the level Celtic operate at club level. Lazio is flash in the pan stuff, if we want to look at European results in isolation, fine but it makes much more sense to look at Celtic as a collective in Europe over the last few years. At best a make up the numbers team in the CL, at worst a last 32 team in the lessor European tournament, not good enough for where we want to be. 

My gripe with Project Brave is the near complete lack of communication. We're going on three years without an official SFA led communication. I know it's a long-term fix but there's no excuse not to update your major stakeholders (fans) 

Anyway, I know that went on a bit, I'm just glad once again Colts are in the bin, for all the above reasons I hope they remain in there and we don't need to have this debate in another couple years. The positive for me is Doncaster seen fit to have a vote on a proposal with less than 40% backing but not the colts. That tells me the general appetite for Colts has to be a fair bit below 40% hopefully Celtic and Rangers take this on with any future Scottish youth development projects and don't include a plan that's always going to be doomed to failure. 

I disagree, the merit is not just for Celtic plus you seem to underestimate our game,it's doesn't matter if it was St Mirren's colt team playing in league 2 they are not St Mirren players.
Would it make a difference if it was St Mirren colts playing in league 2? For me they only become Celtic players when they make the first team.
There is two parts here and the first part is more important than the second, the first part is to produce better and more talent for club level the players that make the grade at Celtic will probably move abroad or down south plus some will stay at Celtic,the second part is national level,the players that don't make the grade will create a trickle down effect.
The trickle down effect should make sure we don't lose as many players to the game.

You keep mentioning Europe for me this is where you are underestimating our game as a league we are sitting 14th out of 55 nations across Europe if you think that isn't good enough then you're wrong.You have got to accept the position we are in, we will never be as good as the big 5 countries but we are at least a top 20 country which makes us better than average. the nations league puts us in the 3rd tier or better it's decent but would be better if we can make the 2nd tier.

Self interest is killing our game and I include my club in that, you mentioned project brave the problem is the self interest gets in the way of anything long term.
Clubs never fully support each other in anything, small country small mentality attitude, look after yourself inward thinking will never change.
The bigger picture for clubs doesn't exist,the needs from bottom to top top to bottom for clubs are totally different.
  

[Aim Here]

9 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Difficult? Yes. Uncertain? Yes.

Utterly impossible? No.

It's still not safe or legal to play football even today. Contracts have run out. As of the start of the month, teams are now a lot less able to field players - and even managers - than they were last month. It will be even worse next month. The longer we wait, the less the post-lockdown football looks like it belongs to the same competition as pre-lockdown football.

At some point, the season could have been resumed, sure - but if the argument for continuing to play out the season is 'sporting integrity', where's the sporting integrity in this arbitrary and unexpected mid-competition player shuffle? Attempting to play later than some cutoff date negates the reason for attempting to play the tournament out in the first place. It would be like trying to resume the 1939 season in 1945, and assuming the pre-war results applied to the post-war competition.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aim Here

[Arch Stanton]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

Genuinely can’t remember how the numbers worked out, what was the tipping point?

Hearts are in Drop Zone 1

[ropy]

Are we agreed that there was a very realistic possibility of Hearts being relegated under normal circumstances?

So what has happened is entirely plausible and one that Hearts would be prepared for.

(....but it’s not fair, I know, I know....)

[Dundee Hibernian]

13 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I disagree, the merit is not just for Celtic plus you seem to underestimate our game,it's doesn't matter if it was St Mirren's colt team playing in league 2 they are not St Mirren players.
Would it make a difference if it was St Mirren colts playing in league 2? For me they only become Celtic players when they make the first team.

That's as daft an assertion I've seen on here for a long time.

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Ok. With the government restrictions in place meaning that the first possible, but not definite, date that top league matches in Scotland can be played is 1st August, how would you suggest that the remaining matches could be played and Scotland’s European representatives  be given to UEFA in time for the qualifying rounds of next season’s competitions?

It's worth bearing in mind that Sky have paid £9.3 million per game to show the EPL, BT £9.22 million. That gives a massive incentive to get the games on, and makes the costs of testing etc and no ticket sales insignificant.

[wastecoatwilly]

2 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

That's as daft an assertion I've seen on here for a long time.

Players have no loyalty all they care about is first team football the best level they can play at and their wage at the end of the month. 

[Pet Jeden]

15 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

It's still not safe or legal to play football even today. Contracts have run out. As of the start of the month, teams are now a lot less able to field players - and even managers - than they were last month. It will be even worse next month. The longer we wait, the less the post-lockdown football looks like it belongs to the same competition as pre-lockdown football.

At some point, the season could have been resumed, sure - but if the argument for continuing to play out the season is 'sporting integrity', where's the sporting integrity in this arbitrary and unexpected mid-competition player shuffle? Attempting to play later than some cutoff date negates the reason for attempting to play the tournament out in the first place. It would be like trying to resume the 1939 season in 1945, and assuming the pre-war results applied to the post-war competition.

 

The point in question was - at the time of Dundeegate, was the option of playing out the season (in the face of a lockdown to June) "utterly impossible"? No. Was it even evaluated by the board (stuffed full of conflicted members) , along with null & void? And was it even put to the clubs in an objective manner?

Sure, a 6 year gap would be ridiculous. But somewhere between that and not trying at all would have been reasonable.

[Aim Here]

7 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Players have no loyalty all they care about is first team football the best level they can play at and their wage at the end of the month. 

So you're okay with, say, Rangers and Rangers Colts and Celtic playing in the same league together? You don't think there's possible conflicts of interest with two sets of players working for the same team and getting that month-end wage from the same boss? On the last day of the season, Rangers play Rangers Colts and there's a wafer-thin points margin between Rangers and Celtic at the top of the Premiership, and you reckon Rangers Colts will give it their all to deny the parent team the trophy, and bite the hand that feeds them?

Or do you think they should be forced into separate leagues, as happens on the continent - precisely because they do have some loyalty to the people paying their wages?

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aim Here