League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Insaintee]

3 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

The point in question was - at the time of Dundeegate, was the option of playing out the season (in the face of a lockdown to June) "utterly impossible"? No. Was it even evaluated by the board (stuffed full of conflicted members) , along with null & void? And was it even put to the clubs in an objective manner?

Sure, a 6 year gap would be ridiculous. But somewhere between that and not trying at all would have been reasonable.

It's not really a point, thought. There was a vote and a decision. The other options were examined, but the clubs decided to end the season.

[Aim Here]

9 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

The point in question was - at the time of Dundeegate, was the option of playing out the season (in the face of a lockdown to June) "utterly impossible"? No. Was it even evaluated by the board (stuffed full of conflicted members) , along with null & void? And was it even put to the clubs in an objective manner?

Sure, a 6 year gap would be ridiculous. But somewhere between that and not trying at all would have been reasonable.

That was not the question at the time of Dundeegate. At Dundeegate, the question was '*If* we end the season early, how should we decide to do it, and what should happen?'.

The decision on actually halting the league was taken - with everyone's assent - on the 18th May, and there was extensive discussion on the consequences, including an EGM on the dossier - between the Dundeegate vote and the actual board decision.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aim Here

[DeeTillEhDeh]

We are a couple of weeks behind  England. We could have been playing in July and August. Then straight into next season. The players can't need a break - they've been scratching their arses for the last 3 months.

Most clubs apart from the arse cheeks would have had a problem with contracts being up for some players after 30 June (or earlier).

 

This isn't England - we don't have a Sky magic money tree.

 

In any case - even Hearts recognised that it was impossible to finish the season - their objections are on how the season finished and places decided.

 

[Pet Jeden]

28 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Ok. With the government restrictions in place meaning that the first possible, but not definite, date that top league matches in Scotland can be played is 1st August, how would you suggest that the remaining matches could be played and Scotland’s European representatives  be given to UEFA in time for the qualifying rounds of next season’s competitions?

Edit: The qualifiers for Scottish clubs start on 27th August.

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

[JamesM82]

54 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

I’ve seen quite a few comments around “Scottish football is the laughing stock of Europe”. Quite telling that on yesterday’s Sportsound podcast, when Martin O’Neill was asked about his take on what has been going on in the last few months with Scottish football, he said that he knew nothing until he had asked Chick Young to fill him in with the details. We are not the laughing stock that some people imply, because very few people outside of Scotland can be bothered to find out what happens here. It isn’t even reported on in England. 

e.g. Look at the ridiculous situation Northern Ireland is now in. Their 2019/20 season is still open, because their clubs voted against curtailing (either by voiding or using PPG). But because of UEFA now insisting they must nominate teams to enter 2020/21 qualifying by 3 August, they now can't complete their season. So they're now going to have to do something that they've already voted against.

This isn't reported on anywhere other than Northern Ireland, so they aren't a "laughing stock".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53077120

Edited June 17, 2020 by JamesM82

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Covid-19 has affected the BBC, could the public demand a partial refund of the TV licence due to restricted output?
I don't think so.

At least one positive - they've run out of episodes of Eastenders.

[wastecoatwilly]

3 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

So you're okay with, say, Rangers and Rangers Colts and Celtic playing in the same league together? You don't think there's possible conflicts of interest with two sets of players working for the same team and getting that month-end wage from the same boss? On the last day of the season, Rangers play Rangers Colts and there's a wafer-thin points margin between Rangers and Celtic at the top of the Premiership, and you reckon Rangers Colts will give it their all to deny the parent team the trophy, and bite the hand that feeds them?

Or do you think they should be in separate leagues precisely because they do have some loyalty to the people paying their wages?

We both know any colt team would not be promoted to the top league so your scenario is utter mince.
Paying their wages and trying to give them the best education they can get at a young age will benefit them later in their careers. 

[JamesM82]

5 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

SFA banned all football activity in Scotland until 12 June, before the Dundee vote was even cast.

[GordonD]

33 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

There is two parts here and the first part is more important than the second, the first part is to produce better and more talent for club level the players that make the grade at Celtic will probably move abroad or down south plus some will stay at Celtic,the second part is national level,the players that don't make the grade will create a trickle down effect.
The trickle down effect should make sure we don't lose as many players to the game.

And why should other clubs be forced to help Celtic produce better talent? You mention the trickle down effect which means the people who aren't good enough for Celtic can piss off to the diddy teams. Crumbs from the rich man's table, in other words. If Celtic Colts aren't around to hoover up the young talent then they could be in the first team at a League One or Two side at the same age. I would think that would bring them on faster (steady) than playing alongside other kids.

[Aim Here]

1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

England has different hospitals, different health systems, different politicians, different footballing authorities and a different government as far as most of these matters are concerned.

It also has the worst Covid19 death rate in Europe, outside of Belgium (Scotland isn't far behind, but it's better), and is not an example to be emulated.

 

[theauldyin]

2 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

What is it about F**king lockdown your cannot understand. At time of the Dundee  we were in one ! English football starts tonight because they are in different a position to us. Last a heard the FM of Scotland runs the country no old BUDGIE or SPL or SPFL FFS !!

[Aim Here]

8 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

We both know any colt team would not be promoted to the top league so your scenario is utter mince.
Paying their wages and trying to give them the best education they can get at a young age will benefit them later in their careers. 

Why wouldn't they? If you mean because the rules won't permit it, that bolsters my point that there's a surefire conflict of interest.

If you mean because they won't be good enough, I disagree - there are a fair number of cases in Europe where 'B' teams have been denied promotion, or 'A' teams denied relegation precisely because there's another sister club in the league they'd travel to.

Remember,  only a year or two ago, you had Scotty Allan and Yusuf Mulumbu - no-brainer first-team picks for Premiership teams (if not star players) only the previous season - sitting in the pub on Saturday afternoon playing dominoes because they couldn't even get on the subs bench at Celtic. You think Celtic couldn't put together a 'B' team that would pretty much coast to the second tier, at least?

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aim Here

[JamesM82]

2 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Why wouldn't they? If you mean because the rules won't permit it, that bolsters my point that there's a surefire conflict of interest.

If you mean because they won't be good enough, I disagree - there are a fair number of cases in Europe where 'B' teams have been denied promotion, or 'A' teams denied relegation precisely because there's another sister club in the league they'd travel to.

In 1980, Real Madrid beat their reserve team ("Castilla") in the Copa del Rey final!

Madrid also won the league,  so Castilla played West Ham in the CWC in the following season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Copa_del_Rey_Final

Imagine how shit a cup final between one half of the OF and their reserve team would be.

[kingjoey]

26 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

HAve you been following the news? There are lots of things that people in England can do that we cannot do up here. Why can’t you just admit that it would, in fact, have been impossible to complete the season and have teams in Europe in the coming season. That is a fact.

[Staggie52]

35 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

The point in question was - at the time of Dundeegate, was the option of playing out the season (in the face of a lockdown to June) "utterly impossible"? No. Was it even evaluated by the board (stuffed full of conflicted members) , along with null & void? And was it even put to the clubs in an objective manner?

Jings, I hate to have to do this, but please explain how it was possible to play professional football in Scotland, when it was banned in March, and as we speak in June is still banned and the earliest date the Scottish Government has said it will lift the ban is 1 August, if it is safe to do so. Try to be brief.

[ropy]

When they decide to play the Scottish Cup semis in September will we get a different thread or will it all be bracketed under one ‘it’s no fair’ topic?

[wastecoatwilly]

20 minutes ago, GordonD said:

And why should other clubs be forced to help Celtic produce better talent? You mention the trickle down effect which means the people who aren't good enough for Celtic can piss off to the diddy teams. Crumbs from the rich man's table, in other words. If Celtic Colts aren't around to hoover up the young talent then they could be in the first team at a League One or Two side at the same age. I would think that would bring them on faster (steady) than playing alongside other kids.

Clubs have their own youth development having Celtic colt teams in league 2 will free up more space for other teams to develop their own talent.
The better ones will always be loans out to gain experience at the higher levels.

[wastecoatwilly]

39 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Why wouldn't they? If you mean because the rules won't permit it, that bolsters my point that there's a surefire conflict of interest.

If you mean because they won't be good enough, I disagree - there are a fair number of cases in Europe where 'B' teams have been denied promotion, or 'A' teams denied relegation precisely because there's another sister club in the league they'd travel to.

Remember,  only a year or two ago, you had Scotty Allan and Yusuf Mulumbu - no-brainer first-team picks for Premiership teams (if not star players) only the previous season - sitting in the pub on Saturday afternoon playing dominoes because they couldn't even get on the subs bench at Celtic. You think Celtic couldn't put together a 'B' team that would pretty much coast to the second tier, at least?

It doesn't matter who pays their wages if it was hibs colts how many would you expect to make the first team?
Age restrictions on colt team would prevent that from happened it's about 18 to 21's getting game time not players being better at dominoes than football.

[Roy McGregor brown stuff]

1 hour ago, Aim Here said:

The league might well not restart in August, but that'll be up to the coronavirus and the Scottish government, not Hearts and their lawyers.

You don't even know what sort of redress Hearts are going for, so this bold claims of injunctions seems far-fetched - at best.

Hearts won't get an injunction if they're asking for the season to be played out - because one look at them assenting to the season end decision, and the bare facts of the coronavirus lockdown would make the prima facie case very weak, compared to the harm done to the league. You won't get an injunction to stop thousands of people working on the offchance that someone's lawyers might concoct a novel legal theory that might scrape a court victory. And asking the Scottish Court of Session to unilaterally reshape the Scottish league system is even more of a long shot.

About the only thing that might make sense is asking for compensation, and if they're asking for money, they don't have any cause to delay the league and stop the SPFL earning the money to pay Hearts.

I suspect Hearts won't make any attempt to call for an injunction to halt Scottish football being played.

100% if this gets to court the  injunction will be put in place. 
Simply put, it is a restriction of trade. & until the case is heard then nothing can be started. Simple business law.

Covid may yet prevent an August restart (doubt it now) but if agreement not reached before it goes to court an injunction will have to be issued until case heard/completed. 

[coprolite]

55 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Self fulfilling problem. What exactly did the SFA/SPFL ask of Scotgov and what did they offer as mitigation? They'd already decided they were calling the leagues and putting all their eggs in a 1st Aug start basket. Because with the same medical data, English teams were playing friendlies last week and are playing competitive football tonight

Some English teams.

The championship down got called no?  

They can meet the costs of staging the premiership games out of the average £2m per game tv money. Our equivalent is more like £50k.

 

21 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Clubs have their own youth development having Celtic colt teams in league 2 will free up more space for other teams to develop their own talent.
The better ones will always be loans out to gain experience at the higher levels.

Would you be so kind as to explain the mechanism by which this alchemy occurs?