George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[AsimButtHitsASix]

16 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I made this point a couple of nights ago. It's all freely available information and public record.

You can (based on my experience) now expect to be called a racist apologist.

Or, more likely,  you can expect to be cherry picking stats without looking at them in detail.

For instance we know that black people are more likely to commit crimes (and, also, be victims but that part's often left out) and, therefore, are more likely to have interactions with police officers and, therefore, more likely to be killed. However this ignores the fact that the number of black people incarcerated or killed/injured by the police is STILL disproportionate to the crime figures.

It also ignores the figures when adjusted for the fiscal disparity between black people and others in the US. When the figures are shown by financial level of criminals the disparity drops.

It also ignores the evidence that black people are more likely to be caught than white people who commit the same crimes and more likely to face tougher sentencing than white people which limits their financial abilities (and becomes a generational burden) and creates an ever increasing spiral of poverty along race based lines.

And even if we did ignore all that other very important stuff it still leads to the question: "why are black people more likely to commit crime?" if your answer is anything other than societal racism writ large across and entire nation (if not world) then, yes, you are really just a racist apologist because surely if the answer is not down to social factors that affect black people more (societal racism) the only other answer would be something inbuilt to black people themselves? And that IS racist and people who point out the statistics you have, without the other statistics that provide context, are enabling racist stereotypes to continue.

Racist apologist doesn't seem that big a stretch under those circumstances.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Or, more likely,  you can expect to be cherry picking stats without looking at them in detail.

For instance we know that black people are more likely to commit crimes (and, also, be victims but that part's often left out) and, therefore, are more likely to have interactions with police officers and, therefore, more likely to be killed. However this ignores the fact that the number of black people incarcerated or killed/injured by the police is STILL disproportionate to the crime figures.

It also ignores the figures when adjusted for the fiscal disparity between black people and others in the US. When the figures are shown by financial level of criminals the disparity drops.

It also ignores the evidence that black people are more likely to be caught than white people who commit the same crimes and more likely to face tougher sentencing than white people which limits their financial abilities (and becomes a generational burden) and creates an ever increasing spiral of poverty along race based lines.

And even if we did ignore all that other very important stuff it still leads to the question: "why are black people more likely to commit crime?" if your answer is anything other than societal racism writ large across and entire nation (if not world) then, yes, you are really just a racist apologist because surely if the answer is not down to social factors that affect black people more (societal racism) the only other answer would be something inbuilt to black people themselves? And that IS racist and people who point out the statistics you have, without the other statistics that provide context, are enabling racist stereotypes to continue.

Racist apologist doesn't seem that big a stretch under those circumstances.

It doesn't ignore any of those things, since when I brought it up I mentioned the social injustice that is tied to all of these figures. But, you carry on.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Just now, JTS98 said:

It doesn't ignore any of those things, since when I brought it up I mentioned the social injustice that is tied to all of these figures. But, you carry on.

So what was your point caller?

[Johnstoun]

If it's fair to say you're 2.5 x more likely to be shot while black, it's not unreasonable to suggest you're 2.5x more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested and prosecuted. They're being disproportionately policed and jailed for crimes, not disproportionately committing crimes.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

So what was your point caller?

That another poster was mentioning exactly the same thing that I'd mentioned before and had taken quite a bit of stick for bringing up.

The facts of the matter are the facts of the matter. Whether they're presented by a black writer or a white diddy on a football forum.

But you carry on playing the man and not the ball. It reflects well on you.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

That another poster was mentioning exactly the same thing that I'd mentioned before and had taken quite a bit of stick for bringing up.

The facts of the matter are the facts of the matter. Whether they're presented by a black writer or a white diddy on a football forum.

But you carry on playing the man and not the ball. It reflects well on you.

I never played the man at all. Please point to where I did. I referred to a hypothetical scenario, I detailed that scenario, and you said it doesn't apply to you.

So stop crying, pull up your big boy pants, and answer the question.

What was the point you were trying to make when you brought up these statistics?

Edited June 25, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Guest JTS98]

4 minutes ago, Johnstoun said:

If it's fair to say you're 2.5 x more likely to be shot while black, it's not unreasonable to suggest you're 2.5x more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested and prosecuted. They're being disproportionately policed and jailed for crimes, not disproportionately committing crimes.

But they are disproportionally committing crimes. This is a stone cold fact.

[Cosmic Joe]

I think the most depressing thing about this whole episode has been the hardening of the position of the far right agitators and their not so clever sympathisers. The outcome most of us want is for people to be more open minded and consider the situation from the position of those of a different ethnicity to ourselves. 

I'm not entirely sure that we are heading in that direction

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

But they are disproportionally committing crimes. This is a stone cold fact.

Again, third time lucky, why are you bringing up this fact?

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I never played the man at all. Please point to where I did. I referred to a hypothetical scenario, I detailed that scenario, and you said it doesn't apply to you.

So stop crying, pull up your big boy pants, and answer the question.

What was the point you were trying to make when you brought up these statistics?

i do apologise. I confused you with Day of the Lords.

Profuse apologies etc etc.

Still. I think my point was quite clear. The facts are the facts regardless of who brings them up.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Again, third time lucky, why are you bringing up this fact?

Because the poster I responded to quoted the figures out of context. Out of context figures are useless and shouldn't pass unchallenged.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Christ this is like getting blood out of a stone.

39 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I made this point a couple of nights ago. It's all freely available information and public record.

You said you posted "this point". There is no "point" in statistics. They are merely statistics. A couple of nights ago, whenever you posted, what was the point you were trying to make? You refer to Dee Man's "point". Dee Man is not making any point in his post. He is just posting statistics.

I am not referring to you quoting Dee Man and yer wee pity party about being called a racist.

ETA: I think we've had some crossed paths on this btw.

Edited June 25, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Christ this is like getting blood out of a stone.

You said you posted "this point". There is no "point" in statistics. They are merely statistics. A couple of nights ago, whenever you posted, what was the point you were trying to make? You refer to Dee Man's "point". Dee Man is not making any point in his post. He is just posting statistics.

I am not referring to you quoting Dee Man and yer wee pity party about being called a racist.

That's a very confusing post.

Are you saying that crime statistics (the facts of the matter) are not relevant when discussing the police's response to a population?

If so, I just disagree.

If you think crime statistics don't influence this discussion, then I'm not sure what you think does.

[welshbairn]

38 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I made this point a couple of nights ago. It's all freely available information and public record.

You can (based on my experience) now expect to be called a racist apologist.

50% of crime in America is committed by black people? Links please. 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

50% of crime in America is committed by black people? Links please. 

I've never claimed that.

About 52% of murders are though. I think the over-representation of black people in violent crime (35% of gang members being back for example) may contribute to how the police deal with them.

I don't think that's a particularly controversial point. Unless you seriously want to argue from a position that murder figures are irrelevant. If you do, then go ahead.

[welshbairn]

17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I've never claimed that.

God this is boring, you do this every time, say something false, can't back it up, then pretend you didn't say it.

1 hour ago, Dee Man said:

He stated that although only 12% of the population is African American, they are responsible for around 50% of the crime. 

No idea who the guy is or what his credentials are but that's his view on it. He's also not a massive fan of Black Lives Matter for some reason. 

 

 

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

I made this point a couple of nights ago. It's all freely available information and public record.

You can (based on my experience) now expect to be called a racist apologist.

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by welshbairn

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Man dismisses institutional racism as reason so many black people are in prison then explains it is because of institutional racism?

That's a reasonable case to make. It depends where you see the racism.

Of course black people are punished by historical (and modern) institutional racism. But that doesn't mean that the racism we need to talk about is that of the frontline police. It's two different points. The original problem needs to be solved before the secondary one can be.

[Guest JTS98]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

God this is boring, you do this every time, say something false, can't back it up, then pretend you didn't say it. I'd like to see your evidence that 52% of murders are committed by black people though.

 

 

I'd direct you to your nearest search engine.

But perhaps as a starting point look at Homicide Trends in the United States 1980 - 2008, then perhaps Cooper (2012). Or perhaps Fox and Zawitz.

 

[Silvio Tattiescone]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

God this is boring, you do this every time, say something false, can't back it up, then pretend you didn't say it. I'd like to see your evidence that 52% of murders are committed by black people though.

 

 

The claim was fact checked by Ch 4

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

 

[madwullie]

22 minutes ago, Angusfifer said:

I think the most depressing thing about this whole episode has been the hardening of the position of the far right agitators and their not so clever sympathisers. The outcome most of us want is for people to be more open minded and consider the situation from the position of those of a different ethnicity to ourselves. 

I'm not entirely sure that we are heading in that direction

Everything has to be polarised now, partisan. Either snp bad /rabid snp fanboys, or how you voted in an EU referendum a few years ago. 

You'd hope that a fucking deadly virus that kills everyone equally or actual murder of people for the colour of their skin would allow c***s to find some kind of common ground, but no, obviously not. 

Both those referendums, if they themselves have not completely fucked the country(ies) politically, they've gone a long way to opening up wounds that I really can't see ever being fully healed. I imagine social media hasn't really helped either.

Even on here there is a need to be on the winning side of the argument with everything you say, and people can basically write as much as they like. Unsurprising on twitter with such a small character limit, positions are reduced to the simplest, most partisan level they can be.