George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Theroadlesstravelled]

13 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

Everyone reading this thread thinking that D.A.F.C’s ramblings were the worst thing they’d read this weekend are in for a surprise...
 

I quite like Derek Ferguson. 

Didn’t you just come back from a banning?

[Mark Connolly]

27 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

Everyone reading this thread thinking that D.A.F.C’s ramblings were the worst thing they’d read this weekend are in for a surprise...
 

I quite like Derek Ferguson. 

I've seen him at a few of the Show Racism the Red Card events, and he is excellent at them.

Sadly he does not match this standard in any of his other work, as far as I have seen/heard.

[NotThePars]

37 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

He’s not the best spoken, but I like his passion for the Scottish game, tends to be someone who talks it up in my experience. 

Ah, the Chris Sutton defence. In fairness, I don't mind Sutton.

[Mark Connolly]

36 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

I know he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but being banned for liking him would be a bit harsh. 
 

He’s not the best spoken, but I like his passion for the Scottish game, tends to be someone who talks it up in my experience. 

This is true. I'd far rather listen to him being totally confused but extremely excited on OAM than hear another anecdote or "joke" from Chick Young

[D.A.F.C]

You had multiple responses which had no ad hominem attacks, with clear explanations of why people found your posts about quotas problematic.

You didn't engage in a reasoned argument with any of the points made, took nothing on board then started going off on one about dots when people concluded that what you were saying suggested you hold a racist attitude over the issue, after multiple posts of wilfully ignoring the points people were making to you and repeating your initial problematic point.

You can't complain about this turning into a bun fight when you're the one who caused it by refusing to engage in good faith. Even in this post you're still repeating that your view is supported by facts, having failed to address any of the points raised by DA Baracus, Marshmallo and many others explaining why your posts were viewed as racist.

To turn round and claim you're actually the victim of bullying because you've been criticised after all that is just dishonest, and if you genuinely believe that's what's happening here then you could do with stepping away from P&B for a while for your own good, as well as educating yourself further about race and subconscious bias.

Theres lots not correct in that statement.

Nobody has just come out and attacked or abused me with no other posts containing an arguement. Thats incorrect.

I did engage in a reasoned argument, I put a post up that took me over an hour to research and look up facts and figures that showed support from black people saying that they felt that quotas weren't the long term answer.

Nobody has come back and answered that nobody responded to it.

I responded to DA and others questions, what exactly do you want me to answer?

I feel like you've just taken the majority view and summed it up to get attention and likes.

Well done, fantastic.

What research have you done? Do you know lots of black people in Scotland that have been discriminated against?

What work have you done to try and stop the racism and subconscious bias that exists?

Id like to hear all about it.

No, just nothing. Liked a few threads on twitter and took the moral highground while contributing nothing and doing nothing and throwing people under the bus who dare to seek the real truth and why tokenism and quotas have done nothing to change institutionally racists places like the police.

You'll disappear and stop caring once this dies off. Like everyone else claiming that they care.

 

 

[BFTD]

Called it.

[NotThePars]

7 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

The defence actually gets you so far In my eyes. We all know Scottish football is the GOAT, and so many of our pundits love playing it down and comparing it to England, having people who genuinely love it is a breath of fresh air.

 

Aye definitely plus Chris Sutton is one of the few pundits that's excellent at playing the heel role and winding up everyone. In the interests of full disclosure, however, I still think Lawro is the king.

[Bairnardo]

Theres lots not correct in that statement.
Nobody has just come out and attacked or abused me with no other posts containing an arguement. Thats incorrect.
I did engage in a reasoned argument, I put a post up that took me over an hour to research and look up facts and figures that showed support from black people saying that they felt that quotas weren't the long term answer.
Nobody has come back and answered that nobody responded to it.
I responded to DA and others questions, what exactly do you want me to answer?
I feel like you've just taken the majority view and summed it up to get attention and likes.
Well done, fantastic.

Tbf Insaid that quotas werent the long term answer, they were neccessary in order to try and move from an unfair society to a fair one where ideally they wouldnt be needed.

With no quotas, the collective we cannot be trusted not to display bias (conscious or unconscious) against people who dont look the same as us. We have gone from blatant under representation proportionally, to proportional over representation as you called it, in the hope that one day folk of different backgrounds will all get a fair shake. If the quotas arent there, ok wont be exposed to, and alive to the fact that creed or colour makes no difference to ability to present a football show for example and the bias that exists would continue to go unchecked.

You can argue if quotas are the best solution if you like. I am not sure what there is that's better.

[D.A.F.C]

Bully, just responding for the likes, etc etc.
I don't understand why anyone would think posting on a public forum should be met with either unequivocal agreement, or silence. Maybe the silence would be a form of bullying too. Very odd.

Well what else would you call this type of behaviour?
Summing up and appearing on the winning side to put others down.
Assuming that the other side doesn't know what they're talking about.
Not posting correct facts but stating that they are.
Its no different to standing and applauding the winning side. What is it contributing?
Fuxk all

[D.A.F.C]

Tbf Insaid that quotas werent the long term answer, they were neccessary in order to try and move from an unfair society to a fair one where ideally they wouldnt be needed.

With no quotas, the collective we cannot be trusted not to display bias (conscious or unconscious) against people who dont look the same as us. We have gone from blatant under representation proportionally, to proportional over representation as you called it, in the hope that one day folk of different backgrounds will all get a fair shake. If the quotas arent there, ok wont be exposed to, and alive to the fact that creed or colour makes no difference to ability to present a football show for example and the bias that exists would continue to go unchecked.

You can argue if quotas are the best solution if you like. I am not sure what there is that's better.

I've said whats better. Making long term changes to society that makes it completely fair for everyone to get the chance to become anything and progress as much as they want.
Quotas and tokenism is racist, its saying that bame people cannot get roles simply because they are bame. Its a simplistic and unrealistic solution to a bigger issue in society and as I mentioned will take 200 plus years to fix.
1992 LA riots, riots in england decades ago. Its not working. Quotas is a failure. Why are the majority of firms still run by white middle class men who went to rich universities? Its just going to continue and thinking that putting bame people into roles just to make people more aware is nonsense.
All it does is make people wonder if they really deserved to get that role.
Its not just bame it applies to women and disabled people as well. Despite all the interference and changes its still all rich white men at the top.
Please show evidence, especially from bame people that this is working and making a difference.
This afternoon I listened to a show on BBC radio 4 talking to a Muslim women who was welcomed into the police force but was then bullied and harassed when she tried to progress to sergeant. This is what we need to change. Long standing institutional racism within places like the police and Westminster. Not some office in kirkcaldy that has zero problems with racism or subconscious bias because no bame people are applying.
Whatever has been tried in the past hasn't worked and it needs to change. Chucking statues in the sea or holding up a piece of card won't make a difference. Its about as useful as Hamilton changing his car to all black while chosing to live in monaco and pay zero tax to the uk.
People love to stand up and pretend they care about subjects but do nothing to change it. They don't even vote.

[Shotgun]

I had hoped that once you’d had some sleep and/or sobered up you would’ve come back with a different attitude but it seems you’re still determined to play the victim. 

Look, if you’d led off with “tokenism is bad” I doubt there would be too many people disagreeing with you. At least it might’ve led to an interesting discussion. Instead you started out with “there are too many black people on TV and I don’t like it.” You then dug in by giving reasons why  a certain black person shouldn’t be on TV and when people pointed out that the same could be said about his white counterparts, you still refused to stop and take a look at what you’d been saying. 
 

I know you’ve shared on other threads that you’re going through some issues so I’m going to echo what others have said and suggest you take a break from the Internet. Maybe do some soul searching. Because if you think what BFTD wrote counts as bullying, then you’re going to be in for a very rough time in life. 
 

ETA: For the record, I find your post to immediately above to be quite reasonable, even if it’s lacking a basic understanding of what quotas are about.  But even so, that’s nowhere near where you started. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Shotgun

[BFTD]

4 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

Well what else would you call this type of behaviour?
Summing up and appearing on the winning side to put others down.
Assuming that the other side doesn't know what they're talking about.
Not posting correct facts but stating that they are.
Its no different to standing and applauding the winning side. What is it contributing?
Fuxk all

Communication on a public forum. You've given your opinion, and people have responded. If you don't like it, perhaps social media isn't for you.

You can keep greeting about bullying all you like, but your definition of that word seems to include anyone adding an opposing view to yours. You're either attention-seeking yourself, or should probably talk to someone about why you feel everyone is against you. Also worth discussing why you think anybody here gives a rat's arse about worthless wee dots that most folk use as 'I agree' or as an end to a conversation, as it clearly matters to you.

[Bairnardo]

3 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

I've said whats better. Making long term changes to society that makes it completely fair for everyone to get the chance to become anything and progress as much as they want.
Quotas and tokenism is racist, its saying that bame people cannot get roles simply because they are bame. Its a simplistic and unrealistic solution to a bigger issue in society and as I mentioned will take 200 plus years to fix.
1992 LA riots, riots in england decades ago. Its not working. Quotas is a failure. Why are the majority of firms still run by white middle class men who went to rich universities? Its just going to continue and thinking that putting bame people into roles just to make people more aware is nonsense.
All it does is make people wonder if they really deserved to get that role.
Its not just bame it applies to women and disabled people as well. Despite all the interference and changes its still all rich white men at the top.
Please show evidence, especially from bame people that this is working and making a difference.
This afternoon I listened to a show on BBC radio 4 talking to a Muslim women who was welcomed into the police force but was then bullied and harassed when she tried to progress to sergeant. This is what we need to change. Long standing institutional racism within places like the police and Westminster. Not some office in kirkcaldy that has zero problems with racism or subconscious bias because no bame people are applying.
Whatever has been tried in the past hasn't worked and it needs to change. Chucking statues in the sea or holding up a piece of card won't make a difference. Its about as useful as Hamilton changing his car to all black while chosing to live in monaco and pay zero tax to the uk.
People love to stand up and pretend they care about subjects but do nothing to change it. They don't even vote.

Long term..... So in the mean time we do nothing? Society will take generations to shift on any topic let alone one so entrenched and controversial. Quotas is part of the mechanism to change over the long term ffs

 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

I don’t mind Ian Wright. He is a bit of a bell end when watching England games but he’s miles better than McManaman or Owen. 

The fact that there’s so few options for a BAME commentator is probably a reflection on institutional racism in English football. 
 

Robbie Earle is one of my favourite pundits.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

Is DAFC the same guy who had a meltdown a couple of months back because an advert said it was ok for women to be overweight?

[Mr Waldo]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

You can argue if quotas are the best solution if you like. I am not sure what there is that's better.

Quotas will work if, over the short term, your are looking to add a certain demographic.

They do not, and cannot, work for anything more, simply because

• there are an infinate amount of demographics.   Now that we've got a 'fair' representation of this, what's next?
• what representation are you calling for in this case? UK society, professional players, football in general?

If you are calling for quotas to enable equality of outcome, then that is a terrible idea.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Mr Waldo
My list didn't make sense.

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

I've said whats better. Making long term changes to society that makes it completely fair for everyone to get the chance to become anything and progress as much as they want.
Quotas and tokenism is racist, its saying that bame people cannot get roles simply because they are bame. Its a simplistic and unrealistic solution to a bigger issue in society and as I mentioned will take 200 plus years to fix.

The whole idea of quotas/affirmative action is to foreshorten the 200 year process and, while it may be a blunt instrument, is something I support wholeheartedly.

I spent about a decade selling software to City of London law firms - the sort of global elite whose partners earn in excess of £2 million per annum - and they are, almost counter-intuitively, innovators in positive discrimination with a range of measure from masking CVs to reduce the likelihood of university bias through to deliberately offering traineeships to BAME graduates, including sponsorship through law conversion courses.

Not a perfect system, of course, but a bit of pump-priming is much preferable to saying, "Let's wait 200 years until society evolves".

[NotThePars]

I'm sure I read in an interview with Donald Glover that he said he was initially brought in to the entertainment industry because of affirmative action.

ETA: Just checked and aye he was given his first writing gig on 30 Rock because an NBC Diversity Initiative meant he was cheaper to hire.

Edited July 5, 2020 by NotThePars

[Mark Connolly]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

*Flips table*

I think this is the one you're looking for

[D.A.F.C]

The whole idea of quotas/affirmative action is to foreshorten the 200 year process and, while it may be a blunt instrument, is something I support wholeheartedly.
I spent about a decade selling software to City of London law firms - the sort of global elite whose partners earn in excess of £2 million per annum - and they are, almost counter-intuitively, innovators in positive discrimination with a range of measure from masking CVs to reduce the likelihood of university bias through to deliberately offering traineeships to BAME graduates, including sponsorship through law conversion courses.
Not a perfect system, of course, but a bit of pump-priming is much preferable to saying, "Let's wait 200 years until society evolves".

No ffs
The evidence I posted earlier said that they thought that by doing what you are describing it would take 200 plus years for things to equalise.
People go on about evidence and counter arguments when they arent even reading the thread.