Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2020-21

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

Do you think a club who withdraws should be relegated rather than saved? Do you think saving them damages the credibility of both the LL and the Pyramid?

 

What I think doesn't matter, especially as no one has taken it up. So its the same going round in circles nonsense that happens around the Tayside teams.

The extension seems dodgy, but I've not seen anyone say when that extension actually took place.

The LL put a rule in place before the season started for all its members not knowing how the season would unfold. They don't and didn't have the right to force relegation onto other leagues.

How would it work if a WoSFL club withdrew? Going into the season that would likely have meant an additional relegation to a WoS Premier side. Now we know it's kind of impossible since the WoS is capped at 20 and couldn't accept a 21st side. It's a rule in place for everyone in the LL not just the EoS clubs.

They're also not preventing promotion because of it.

[Burnieman]

What I think doesn't matter, especially as no one has taken it up. So its the same going round in circles nonsense that happens around the Tayside teams.
The extension seems dodgy, but I've not seen anyone say when that extension actually took place.
The LL put a rule in place before the season started for all its members not knowing how the season would unfold. They don't and didn't have the right to force relegation onto other leagues.
How would it work if a WoSFL club withdrew? Going into the season that would likely have meant an additional relegation to a WoS Premier side. Now we know it's kind of impossible since the WoS is capped at 20 and couldn't accept a 21st side. It's a rule in place for everyone in the LL not just the EoS clubs.
They're also not preventing promotion because of it.

You've avoided answering the question, and yes, they can consider the club to be relegated if they withdraw. They're not "forcing" them on anyone as relegation is obviously part and parcel of the Pyramid, and it's highly unlikely that there will be no promotion candidate from below to replace them.

If it ends up a WoS club (unlikely) then they adjust accordingly.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You've avoided answering the question, and yes, they can consider the club to be relegated if they withdraw. They're not "forcing" them on anyone as relegation is obviously part and parcel of the Pyramid, and it's highly unlikely that there will be no promotion candidate from below to replace them.

If it ends up a WoS club (unlikely) then they adjust accordingly.

Avoided it because I don't believe it needs answering as it won't happen.

It's yourself that seems fixated on a single club that would fall within the EoS footprint that will accept the withdraw so as to avoid relegation.

Not multiple clubs, not clubs from other regions, not who would it work if multiple clubs withdrew leaving the LL with less than 16 clubs. All the basic factors that the LL has to consider in creating a rule that applied to everyone in the league equally.

[Burnieman]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Avoided it because I don't believe it needs answering as it won't happen.

It's yourself that seems fixated on a single club that would fall within the EoS footprint that will accept the withdraw so as to avoid relegation.

Not multiple clubs, not clubs from other regions, not who would it work if multiple clubs withdrew leaving the LL with less than 16 clubs. All the basic factors that the LL has to consider in creating a rule that applied to everyone in the league equally.

Do you agree with this rule existing in the first place regardless of whether it will or wont be taken advantage of? do you think it right that a club(s) can withdraw halfway through a season and avoid relegation as a result?  For someone with no links to the LL you are always very defensive of the way they run things.

If the LL was left with less than 16 clubs due to withdrawals you promote from below until 16 clubs is reached. If you cannot get enough licenced league winners (EoS/WoS/SoS) to make-up the numbers, then you invite applications.  However, the protectionism route was the preferred choice and does nothing for the reputation of the LL.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Do you agree with this rule existing in the first place regardless of whether it will or wont be taken advantage of? do you think it right that a club(s) can withdraw halfway through a season and avoid relegation as a result?  For someone with no links to the LL you are always very defensive of the way they run things.

If the LL was left with less than 16 clubs due to withdrawals you promote from below until 16 clubs is reached. If you cannot get enough licenced league winners (EoS/WoS/SoS) to make-up the numbers, then you invite applications.  However, the protectionism route was the preferred choice and does nothing for the reputation of the LL.

Did I agree with the rule in the first place? yes. No one knew what the season was going to look when it was put in place and they weren't preventing promotion. Do I agree with further the extension? No. But no one has used it yet and until someone does it doesn't matter much to me.

Having a different opinion to you, doesn't mean i'm defensive of the LL. I've wanted to know if it was their intention to reduce to 16 this season for example. I've even asked through the LL contact portal what their intentions were regarding relegation this year. Never heard back from them unlike in the past (HL/LL boundary clarification and Which Tier 6 league each was nominated to for relegation.)

 

[Marshmallo]

23 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I've wanted to know if it was their intention to reduce to 16 this season for example. I've even asked through the LL contact portal what their intentions were regarding relegation this year. Never heard back from them unlike in the past (HL/LL boundary clarification and Which Tier 6 league each was nominated to for relegation.)

 

Can't imagine why this would be 

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Can't imagine why this would be 

Yip.

It's an issue that should have been made clear due to the consequences on the lower leagues. Particularly for the EoSFL where that league could end up with a surplus of 16 clubs at the EoS Premier because of it.

[Dev]

It's time for the Pyramid Working Group (Lowland section) to reconvene and sort out this mess once and for all.

If the LL. EoS, SoS and WoS leagues could agree to a plan for promotions and relegations between them that would help the Lowland League in their negotiations with the SFA and the SPFL for automatic promotion for LL/HL play-off winners.

However, the current position of the LL - giving clubs an opportunity to no longer be part of the current season at such a late stage whilst still claiming 33k - is a mess which does no good to the league or the Pyramid. It needs sorting!  

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, Dev said:

However, the current position of the LL - giving clubs an opportunity to no longer be part of the current season at such a late stage whilst still claiming 33k - is a mess which does no good to the league or the Pyramid. It needs sorting!  

It's not clear when the extension was decided, it only became public here about a week ago before the announcements of how the SG money (possibly Lotto money as well as that hasn't been clarified as near as I can tell) was being divvied up and when to expect to actually recieve it.

And at this point NO ONE has withdrawn from the league.

[LongTimeLurker]

18 minutes ago, Dev said:

...It's the LL. EoS, SoS and WoS leagues could agree to a plan for promotions and relegations between them....!  

Why do we need all these league bodies anyway? They are not going to easily agree  on something logical on promotion and relegation or on the long term status of the SoS when they are guided by selfish self-interest agendas.

Once the SJFA is out of the picture where leagues are concerned when what's left of the east region south joins the EoS everything semi-pro in the LL catchment (Tayside is complicated but let's ignore that angle for now) will be in the same grade.

At that point in this era of the internet it could all easily be streamlined and run by one organisation with an SFA committee deciding the overall structure like the FA does with the NLS or whatever it is called in England.

[Ginaro]

This seems to be a discussion without all the facts because the only place withdrawing from the league has been mentioned is in a Raman Bhardwaj tweet, and the updated rules haven't been posted or it hasn't been spelled out exactly what is going to happen if club(s) withdraw.

Assuming the LL go back to 16 clubs for next season then at least one club will be relegated. Even if they don't, then more clubs will need to be relegated the season after to get back to 16.

32 minutes ago, Dev said:

It's time for the Pyramid Working Group (Lowland section) to reconvene and sort out this mess once and for all.

If the LL. EoS, SoS and WoS leagues could agree to a plan for promotions and relegations between them that would help the Lowland League in their negotiations with the SFA and the SPFL for automatic promotion for LL/HL play-off winners.

Why? The LL can facilitate promotion from tier 6 this season - the only scenario in which the LL would have more than 18 clubs is if Brora get promoted at the expense of Albion Rovers and a tier 6 club gets promoted.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

This seems to be a discussion without all the facts because the only place withdrawing from the league has been mentioned is in a Raman Bhardwaj tweet, and the updated rules haven't been posted or it hasn't been spelled out exactly what is going to happen if club(s) withdraw.

While it's absolutely true we're without the facts of what's going on. The LL have updated their rules back in July that left them vague enough to basically do what they want.

[Marshmallo]

38 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

This seems to be a discussion without all the facts because the only place withdrawing from the league has been mentioned is in a Raman Bhardwaj tweet, and the updated rules haven't been posted or it hasn't been spelled out exactly what is going to happen if club(s) withdraw.

Assuming the LL go back to 16 clubs for next season then at least one club will be relegated. Even if they don't, then more clubs will need to be relegated the season after to get back to 16.

Why? The LL can facilitate promotion from tier 6 this season - the only scenario in which the LL would have more than 18 clubs is if Brora get promoted at the expense of Albion Rovers and a tier 6 club gets promoted.

They will go to 18 next year and will remain at that number going forward.

Just a prediction.

[Jack Burton]

They will go to 18 next year and will remain at that number going forward.
Just a prediction.

Might not be the worst thing to happen if they go to 18 then surely can't have just one possible relegation spot.

[Jerry Macguire]

40 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

They will go to 18 next year and will remain at that number going forward.

Just a prediction.

As far as I’m aware it will return to 16 teams next season. How that will be achieved if one or two clubs bail, I have no idea. You might be right in as far as they may temporarily agree to increase to 18 or stay at 17 for next season, before returning to 16 the season after. The 18 team just like the west’s 20 team top division is not one the SFA are keen on, so it’s unlikely to last.

[Deanburn Dave]

These persistent arguments about promotion to the Lowland League are getting us nowhere. In 10 years time I expect the leagues at tiers 5, 6 and 7 will all look totally different and hopefully clubs will be at the levels that match their ability and ambition.

The real challenge for tiers 5 and below is getting the League 2 ( tier4) sides to accept the pyramid.

[Dev]

6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not clear when the extension was decided, it only became public here about a week ago before the announcements of how the SG money (possibly Lotto money as well as that hasn't been clarified as near as I can tell) was being divvied up and when to expect to actually recieve it.

And at this point NO ONE has withdrawn from the league.

I sincerely hope that all Lowland League clubs are able to finish the season and receive the £33k each., as you point out, no club has yet withdrawn. However, the apparent rules and regs of the League appear to allow the situation which I mentioned earlier and that is a mess,

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Deanburn Dave said:

These persistent arguments about promotion to the Lowland League are getting us nowhere. In 10 years time I expect the leagues at tiers 5, 6 and 7 will all look totally different and hopefully clubs will be at the levels that match their ability and ambition.

The real challenge for tiers 5 and below is getting the League 2 ( tier4) sides to accept the pyramid.

Agreed but the possibility that a club can still withdraw, receive £33k, and remain in the League is excellent ammunition if the League 2 require any to argue their case for their own protectionist policy of no automatic relegation from Div. 2. 

[It's Me]

I heard earlier that this clause has now been removed by the SLFL. 

[FairWeatherFan]

7 hours ago, It's Me said:

I heard earlier that this clause has now been removed by the SLFL. 

Good to hear if true.