Moomintroll Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Granny Danger said: What can be done to de-escalate? Send Mossad in to eliminate the shit Stalin tribute act? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picklish Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 What are the alternatives to de-escalation? What are the likely outcomes? Russia gets forced back and becomes increasingly desperate, perhaps contemplates using nukes? Or Putin is removed and they completely capitulate? The West loses the will to continue supplying Ukraine and Russia advances? There's a sort of stalemate, where peace talks leave parts of Ukraine in Russian hands, and political will continues to try to get these returned, post Putin? Feels like only de-escalation is reasonable, if not now then when? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 1 hour ago, StellarHibee said: It's very easy to label them as 'bad', especially when there's a heavy political motive to do so. Just as it's easy to turn a blind eye when there's a heavy political motive to do so (see Israel). However, labelling them as 'bad', isn't going to positively contribute to any de-escalation measures. There are clearly reasons behind Russia's aggressive approach towards Ukraine. But our political elite and the puppet media don't want us to think about that. They just want us to think "Russia bad" and nothing else. In order for de-escalation to occur, there must be political will on both sides of the divide. So far, there doesn't appear to be any political will from either side to find a resolution beyond all out nuclear destruction. In the end, there won't be any goodies and baddies. Just countless avoidable casualties in a war that each side became too politically selfish to avoid. I am critical of both the atrocities that Israel carry out and Russia’s aggression, I believe our politicians should be too. You seem to be suggesting that there is some justification for Russia’s actions, I don’t see it myself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I am critical of both the atrocities that Israel carry out and Russia’s aggression, I believe our politicians should be too. You seem to be suggesting that there is some justification for Russia’s actions, I don’t see it myself. It's not a matter of justification. It's simply reasoning from their own perspective. If we're not prepared to hear out that reasoning, then there is no manoeuvre for de-escalation. Simply shouting 'bad' at them accomplishes nothing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 45 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: It's not a matter of justification. It's simply reasoning from their own perspective. If we're not prepared to hear out that reasoning, then there is no manoeuvre for de-escalation. Simply shouting 'bad' at them accomplishes nothing. Maybe so, but I do not see a path to de-escalation and I’d be interested to hear the views of anyone who does. If Russia are ‘rewarded’ for their aggression I do not see that leading to a safer situation for any of us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Granny Danger said: Maybe so, but I do not see a path to de-escalation and I’d be interested to hear the views of anyone who does. If Russia are ‘rewarded’ for their aggression I do not see that leading to a safer situation for any of us. It's not about "rewarding" Russia either. It's about listening and taking the time to understand what their concerns are regarding Ukraine joining the EU block along with NATO membership. Because that's what this is really all about. The lack of assurances given from both the EU and NATO over the years was always going to lead to further escalation that would hit a tipping point. They knew that it would, but made no real effort to work things over with Russia. It's almost as if they wanted this to happen. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 Just now, StellarHibee said: It's not about "rewarding" Russia either. It's about listening and taking the time to understand what their concerns are regarding Ukraine joining the EU block along with NATO membership. Because that's what this is really all about. The lack of assurances given from both the EU and NATO over the years was always going to lead to further escalation that would hit a tipping point. They knew that it would, but made no real effort to work things over with Russia. It's almost as if they wanted this to happen. Why would Russia worry about Ukraine joining the EU? For all the Daily Mail's insistence, we don't have an EU Army and even if we did, it wouldn't attack Russia, that is clearly madness. NATO has a) been on Russia's doorstep for years and b) long had an agreement that Ukraine wouldn't join. They recognised the 2 breakaway Republics (and whereas they could have looked to find a three way agreement for those regions, they instead absorbed them - and Two other areas, lest us forget - into the Russian Federation with Sham plebiscites.) and tried to take Kyiv rather than sticking to those Two regions (which may have seen some sort of acceptance in some parts of the West). None of those suggest any concern, rather a land grab. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 17 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said: Why would Russia worry about Ukraine joining the EU? For all the Daily Mail's insistence, we don't have an EU Army and even if we did, it wouldn't attack Russia, that is clearly madness. NATO has a) been on Russia's doorstep for years and b) long had an agreement that Ukraine wouldn't join. They recognised the 2 breakaway Republics (and whereas they could have looked to find a three way agreement for those regions, they instead absorbed them - and Two other areas, lest us forget - into the Russian Federation with Sham plebiscites.) and tried to take Kyiv rather than sticking to those Two regions (which may have seen some sort of acceptance in some parts of the West). None of those suggest any concern, rather a land grab. Has it ever occurred to you that NATO are also ran by the mentally insane and not just the Russian Government? Don't kid yourself on NATO never attacking Russia. It's never been about avoiding conflict and has always been about gaining the tactical edge. Neither the EU or NATO give one single f**k about Ukraine. If Ukraine wasn't on the Russian border and was located elsewhere (somewhere in the middle east perhaps), the EU, US and NATO would be nowhere to be seen. Ukraine's location is very convenient to them and it has bugger all to do with protecting the civilians that live there. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 9 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: Has it ever occurred to you that NATO are also ran by the mentally insane and not just the Russian Government? Don't kid yourself on NATO never attacking Russia. It's never been about avoiding conflict and has always been about gaining the tactical edge. Neither the EU or NATO give one single f**k about Ukraine. If Ukraine wasn't on the Russian border and was located elsewhere (somewhere in the middle east perhaps), the EU, US and NATO would be nowhere to be seen. Ukraine's location is very convenient to them and it has bugger all to do with protecting the civilians that live there. If NATO attached Russia there would be no "tactical edge". Clearly NATO are no saints, but several Eastern European nations wanted to join because they were worried Russia might invade them. I wonder whatever gave them that idea? And you've ignored everything I and anyone else has replied to you with. So I'll bow out of this ridiculous charade. Good day, sir. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: Has it ever occurred to you that NATO are also ran by the mentally insane and not just the Russian Government? Don't kid yourself on NATO never attacking Russia. It's never been about avoiding conflict and has always been about gaining the tactical edge. Neither the EU or NATO give one single f**k about Ukraine. If Ukraine wasn't on the Russian border and was located elsewhere (somewhere in the middle east perhaps), the EU, US and NATO would be nowhere to be seen. Ukraine's location is very convenient to them and it has bugger all to do with protecting the civilians that live there. That’s quite possibly the most QAnon style anti-NATO screed I’ve seen in, checks note, forever. NATO is an alliance that, especially since expansion, has been very carefully designed and tweaked to make it nearly impossible to get unanimous agreement to do anything…with a chart that requires said unanimity to require action. As such it’s been explicitly about avoiding conflict since the later 80’s, and was effectively about avoiding conflict since it’s founding. The Russians, in typical Russian fashion, violated everything they agreed to and, in 2014, invaded eastern Ukraine, and then took as a lesson from the results that the West and NATO would do nothing to stop them if they decided to gobble up the rest of Ukraine. If Russia had done nothing in Ukraine, then the West would have likely allowed creeping movement in Ukraine toward joining Russia, as in Belarus, over time, but Putin couldn’t wait to secure his legacy. When the West acted financially to try to counter Russian destabilization in Ukraine, then Putin decided he couldn’t wait because it was delaying HIS win. If he had instead simply relied upon the corruption within Ukraine driven by this financial manipulation to cause a backlash, he would have likely had Ukraine in Russias pocket by 2030. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 1 hour ago, StellarHibee said: Ukraine joining the EU block along with NATO membership. Because that's what this is really all about. Interesting viewpoint 1 hour ago, Salvo Montalbano said: a land grab. The real world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 32 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said: If NATO attached Russia there would be no "tactical edge". Clearly NATO are no saints, but several Eastern European nations wanted to join because they were worried Russia might invade them. I wonder whatever gave them that idea? And you've ignored everything I and anyone else has replied to you with. So I'll bow out of this ridiculous charade. Good day, sir. Most likely NATO themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 On 08/07/2023 at 16:10, Zetterlund said: Anyone calling for de-escalation is being smeared and ridiculed too. What a world. Many opinion pieces in high profile media outlets have done this, sure. The authors are greatly overestimating the amount of democratic control publics have over their governments' policies on Ukraine. Referenda are not being held on what should be done. All decisions around supplying arms to Ukraine and around Ukraine's debt structuring (forcing their government to do austerity and privatisation) are being made without our consultation. The IMF, World Bank and military industrial complexes decide all this, not us. Public opinion is completely irrelevant to what, eg. Joe Biden, does on Ukraine. So even if there was a groundswell of folk calling for "de-escalation" (there isn't) it wouldn't change a thing. Therefore, this rage we see being directed at dissenters is disproportionate and unnecessary. There's also a huge difference between good faith dissent and something like Tucker Carlson's antisemitic screed against Zelenskyy. Too many guard dogs of Ukraine opinion cynically ignore such nuance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said: Why would Russia worry about Ukraine joining the EU? Economic interests. There's now been 9 years of war but before that the more industrialised east of Ukraine generated significantly more wealth than west Ukraine. Then that eastern Ukrainian economy was deeply entwined with the Russian economy (mostly as a legacy of Soviet economic planning). It's likely that the closer Ukraine integrated with the EU, the more Russia would be restricted from accessing east Ukrainian profits. For me, these type of economic concerns motivated Russia's invasion. So the greed of their oligarchy, effectively. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMoore Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Jesus christ what a head loss this has been... 15 hours ago, StellarHibee said: It's very easy to label them as 'bad', especially when there's a heavy political motive to do so. Just as it's easy to turn a blind eye when there's a heavy political motive to do so (see Israel). However, labelling them as 'bad', isn't going to positively contribute to any de-escalation measures. There are clearly reasons behind Russia's aggressive approach towards Ukraine. But our political elite and the puppet media don't want us to think about that. They just want us to think "Russia bad" and nothing else. Let's hear their valid reasons for invading a country and mercilessly bombing civilians and commiting countless war crimes... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 hours ago, RuMoore said: Jesus christ what a head loss this has been... Let's hear their valid reasons for invading a country and mercilessly bombing civilians and commiting countless war crimes... Well it's a good thing the UK doesn't have a history of this. Or Unionists would come across as right c***s in Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 hours ago, RuMoore said: Jesus christ what a head loss this has been... Let's hear their valid reasons for invading a country and mercilessly bombing civilians and commiting countless war crimes... Like the UK did in Iraq you mean ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMoore Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 10 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: Well it's a good thing the UK doesn't have a history of this. Or Unionists would come across as right c***s in Scotland. Shat it. 8 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: Like the UK did in Iraq you mean ? No I mean what Russia is doing in Ukraine, obviously. Your infantile post might have some merit if I supported the Iraq war which I didn't. You keep on playing whataboutery with war crimes though! Classy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarHibee Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, RuMoore said: Shat it. Yes you did. You all did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMoore Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, StellarHibee said: Yes you did. You all did. No, you've shat the bed trying to justify war crimes. But but but please can't we understand why Russia is killing civilians and then being unable to articulate why we should understand these actions is shitebag behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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