Central belt boundaries

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Brora a bit of an outlier. Was there much coal up there?

ETA Not a lot and it was prone to spontaneous combustion apparently.

http://www.northword.online/the-brora-coalfield.html

Edited June 10, 2021 by Melanius Mullarkey

[vikingTON]

Coal is a raw material extracted from rural land that was shipped to industrial centres of production for use: Greenock, Paisley, Glasgow etc. It does not make an area part of the Central Belt in the same way that granite quarrying didn't make Aberdeen part of the Central Belt. 

[Cheese]

It'll be easy to mark the boundaries soon enough as the Glasburgh metropolis gradually comes into being.

[smpar]

Apologies if this tweet has already been pointed out - I couldn’t see it anyway - but this seems a pretty reliable definition; anything within 10 miles of the M8. Some minor controversies however, as it includes places like Helensburgh but excludes the Kincardine Bridge(s) and large parts of Falkirk and Grangemouth.

[Thumper]

3 minutes ago, Avon Barksdale said:

It'll be easy to mark the boundaries soon enough as the Glasburgh metropolis gradually comes into being.

This would require Glasgow to adopt salt and sauce first, which is roughly as likely as Glasgow abandoning vigorous discussion of the organisation of the Christian religion.

[Thumper]

1 minute ago, smpar said:

Apologies if this tweet has already been pointed out - I couldn’t see it anyway - but this seems a pretty reliable definition; anything within 10 miles of the M8. Some minor controversies however, as it includes places like Helensburgh but excludes the Kincardine Bridge(s) and large parts of Falkirk and Grangemouth.

It also includes Penicuik. If you attempt to drive to Penicuik, Clippy pops up on your navigation screen and says "It looks like you're trying to drive to England, can I help you with that?"

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Thumper said:

This would require Glasgow to adopt salt and sauce first, which is roughly as likely as Glasgow abandoning vigorous discussion of the organisation of the Christian religion.

Much like large cities have areas named Chinatown or Koreatown, Glasburgh will have Weegietown, where one will be able to consume fried delicacies with the incorrect condiments.

[Detournement]

10 hours ago, virginton said:

If you have to go through the Queen Street tunnel, then yes. If you can go via Anniesland or another route into civilisation instead then no. Maryhill and Cumbernauld are therefore not in Teuchterdom, in the same way that Dumbarton is not. 

Given that Dumbarton is about ten minutes drive or train from the continuous Glasgow sprawl then it's definitely central belt. Balloch and Helensburgh are the first bumpkin outposts in that area. 

[Hedgecutter]

5 hours ago, coprolite said:

Methil area is definitely on there.  Like i said, as you zoom in the markers drift down. I was surprised how far east they went in Fife but haven't looked into the data in any detail- there's probably surface outcrops that were mined way back that might be included. Also some of the ones around the edges are really short lived- maybe just prospecting? 

https://www.nmrs.org.uk/mines-map/coal-mining-in-the-british-isles/collieries-of-the-british-isles/coal-mines-scotland/

Ah, dodgy map zoom, fair enough.  The ones around the East Neuk are near-surface, and the seams are <2ft in thickness.  Not part of the main coalfield (that only extends as far east as Leven), but you can still see some coal seams along the coastline further east, which is the sort of thing they'd be going for:

 

Beside the aquarium at St Andrews

If you're interested in more details of these things, the BGS website has a boreholes section which sometimes includes the pit shafts which are usually marked on the old OS maps in Pastmap.  Here's the easternmost 1873-1873 Kilrenny pit for example which is almost certainly a near-surface effort for local use.  The nearby Grangemuir pit (opened/closed 1908) didn't even merit a mention on any of the OS maps.  They probably dug some out, found that the coal quality was crap and gave up.  That or the thing just quickly pooled up with groundwater.

 

 

Good to see the coal mines pits at Brora on there too.  Good argument for a transfer to the Lowland League imo.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Hedgecutter

[Melanius Mullarkey]

1 hour ago, Hedgecutter said:

Good to see the coal mines pits at Brora on there too.  Good argument for a transfer to the Lowland League imo.

Coal League needed IMO.

Stick the colts in there. Preferably down an abandoned shaft.

[coprolite]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

Coal is a raw material extracted from rural land that was shipped to industrial centres of production for use: Greenock, Paisley, Glasgow etc. It does not make an area part of the Central Belt in the same way that granite quarrying didn't make Aberdeen part of the Central Belt. 

Coal doesn't extract itself. Back in say 1800 people weren't driving or taking the bus to work so would live near their work.

Therefore settlements near mines either expanded or started.  So presence of coal would have had a major effect on population density. 

You can see that the distribution of coal maps closely to areas of high population density across the whole island.  It might have been found in rural areas but they didn't stay rural for long. 

In the early industrial revolution it was often cheaper to move industry to the coal than the other way around, hence shipyards at Methil and Burntisland. Not on the scale of the  victorian ones on the clyde, but heavy industry nonetheless. 

So the presence of coal is associated with the presence of heavy industry. 

My understanding of the phrase "central belt" is that it refers to the coal mining and heavy industry regions of central scotland, so the presence of quantities of coal would meet that definition and mean that the place is in the central belt. 

Other people clearly have different views of what the phrase means.  

Thanks for trying to explain to the less able though, it was a good effort and you tried really hard. 

[Hedgecutter]

1 minute ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Coal League needed IMO.

Stick the colts in there. Preferably down an abandoned shaft.

the Coal League says no to pit-pony teams.

[Shandon Par]

Don’t drag The Kingdom into this.

[GiGi]

2 minutes ago, Peter Grant said:

Don’t drag The Kingdom into this.

Correct, drive it into the sea instead.

[Hedgecutter]

2 minutes ago, coprolite said:

My understanding of the phrase "central belt" is that it refers to the coal mining and heavy industry regions of central scotland, so the presence of quantities of coal would meet that definition and mean that the place is in the central belt. 

My understanding is that it is purely geographical (area of highest population density), not geological or relating to specific industries or certain motorways (which probably didn't exist whenever the term was coined).  However, as you allude to, the whole reason for the high population concentration there in the first place is because of the natural resources there.  Not just coal, but also oil shale, limestone and ironstone which were essential materials for the types of industry there.   Correlation vs causation issue going on here imo.

[vikingTON]

10 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Coal doesn't extract itself. Back in say 1800 people weren't driving or taking the bus to work so would live near their work.

Therefore settlements near mines either expanded or started.  So presence of coal would have had a major effect on population density. 

You can see that the distribution of coal maps closely to areas of high population density across the whole island.  It might have been found in rural areas but they didn't stay rural for long. 

In the early industrial revolution it was often cheaper to move industry to the coal than the other way around, hence shipyards at Methil and Burntisland. Not on the scale of the  victorian ones on the clyde, but heavy industry nonetheless. 

The East Ayrshire or Fife coalfields are quite clearly rural and not urban centres of production. 

Quote

So the presence of coal is associated with the presence of heavy industry. 

Association with does not mean equivalent to. 

Industry in the UK developed where it did because of favourable access to raw materials and navigable waterways in the vicinity, supplemented by railways. It was sheer chance that the main industrial engine of Glasgow had surrounding rural areas in which coal could be produced, as well as access to the Clyde for relative ease of transport. They could have shipped the coal from Arran or Cowal (if seams were available) and it would still have made economic sense to do so.

By the end of the 19th century many of the Scottish coalfields were exporting their product to continental Europe and so had little to do with local industry at all. 

Quote

 

My understanding of the phrase "central belt" is that it refers to the coal mining and heavy industry regions of central scotland, so the presence of quantities of coal would meet that definition and mean that the place is in the central belt. 

Thanks for trying to explain to the less able though, it was a good effort and you tried really hard. 

 

Douglas and Sanquhar are not in the Central Belt, so your understanding is quite clearly wrong. 

Gutted for you. 

Quote

 

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

Ask NASA.

The light pollution gives a fairly clear definition.

[Hedgecutter]

30 minutes ago, Peter Grant said:

Don’t drag The Kingdom into this.

Anybody from West Fife who doesn't consider themselves to live in the Central Belt despite being able to drive to the Glasgow or Edinburgh areas in half an hour is clearly in denial.  

Eta: So obviously this below.  West Fife / Glenrothes-Kirkcaldy should definitely be in there.  Drive from the Forth Bridge to Leven and you're always beside either some form of housing estate or monster of industry (e.g. Amazon, Mossmorran).  You feel just as rural driving along the M8 through West Lothian as you do along the A92 between Dunfermline & Glenrothes (a hard shoulder being the only difference).

Edited June 10, 2021 by Hedgecutter

[coprolite]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

The East Ayrshire or Fife coalfields are quite clearly rural and not urban centres of production. 

Association with does not mean equivalent to. 

Industry in the UK developed where it did because of favourable access to raw materials and navigable waterways in the vicinity, supplemented by railways. It was sheer chance that the main industrial engine of Glasgow had surrounding rural areas in which coal could be produced, as well as access to the Clyde for relative ease of transport. They could have shipped the coal from Arran or Cowal (if seams were available) and it would still have made economic sense to do so.

By the end of the 19th century many of the Scottish coalfields were exporting their product to continental Europe and so had little to do with local industry at all. 

Douglas and Sanquhar are not in the Central Belt, so your understanding is quite clearly wrong. 

Gutted for you. 

Sorry, i couldn't be bothered reading this because i don't care what you think. 

Didn't like your tone so i thought i'd waste some of your time. 

[vikingTON]

^^^ badly rattled