Lowland League 2021-22 General Chat

[FairWeatherFan]

48 minutes ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

"Convincing clubs" in what sense?   As the Chair surely he was duty bound to pass the information to clubs to allow them to make their own decisions, which they did?

It was from George Fraser sitting on a working group that gave them the idea of doing this for a season. As the longer term plan of introducing Colts into the SPFL wasn't going to happen this season.

I'm pretty sure you'll find quotes out there saying it was the LL that invited the OF in.

EDIT: 05/05/2021

http://slfl.co.uk/discussions-to-invite-rangers-and-celtic-b-teams/

Edited March 9, 2022 by FairWeatherFan

[Kirk St Moritz]

24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It was from George Fraser sitting on a working group that gave them the idea of doing this for a season. As the longer term plan of introducing Colts into the SPFL wasn't going to happen this season.

I'm pretty sure you'll find quotes out there saying it was the LL that invited the OF in.

EDIT: 05/05/2021

http://slfl.co.uk/discussions-to-invite-rangers-and-celtic-b-teams/

Every club had their vote in a democratic manner.  Had there not been a majority in favour, it would not have happened.  The way it should be 

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

Every club had their vote in a democratic manner.  Had there not been a majority in favour, it would not have happened.  The way it should be 

And as we know what was presented as fact in the proposal was fiction. Which is why the amended Lowland League rules didn't get signed off until months after the season started, Board members walking away and eventually the LL Chair standing down due to the fall out.

All very democratic.

 

[drs]

10 minutes ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

Every club had their vote in a democratic manner.  Had there not been a majority in favour, it would not have happened.  The way it should be 

Democratic?

In what sense of the word was what happened democratic? A complete shitstorm that rightfully cost George Fraser his place.

[Kirk St Moritz]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

And as we know what was presented as fact in the proposal was fiction. Which is why the amended Lowland League rules didn't get signed off until months after the season started, Board members walking away and eventually the LL Chair standing down due to the fall out.

All very democratic.

 

What was fictional about the proposal?

And I understand the SFA refused to sign off on all rule changes until the LL agreed to the revised Pyramid Play off rules.  The clubs still voted democratically

[bravehearts dad]

33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It was from George Fraser sitting on a working group that gave them the idea of doing this for a season. As the longer term plan of introducing Colts into the SPFL wasn't going to happen this season.

I'm pretty sure you'll find quotes out there saying it was the LL that invited the OF in.

EDIT: 05/05/2021

http://slfl.co.uk/discussions-to-invite-rangers-and-celtic-b-teams/

Well Fraser ain’t there anymore and hopefully his influence left with him. For me the OF Colts contribution is zero. Taken the piss with fixtures and certainly never brought an increase in gates. 

[Kirk St Moritz]

1 minute ago, drs said:

Democratic?

In what sense of the word was what happened democratic? A complete shitstorm that rightfully cost George Fraser his place.

The sense that all member clubs voted and a majority was established.  

[Kirk St Moritz]

Just now, bravehearts dad said:

Well Fraser ain’t there anymore and hopefully his influence left with him. For me the OF Colts contribution is zero. Taken the piss with fixtures and certainly never brought an increase in gates. 

Yeah, the fixturing looks to have  been an issue, but I can't agree there has been no increase in gates.  What was the biggest home gate in the League at Bonnyrigg this season?

[Kirk St Moritz]

Non B Teams related - has a venue and date been confirmed for the LL Cup Final?  Hoping to get along if its a venue not too far away, ticks another Cup Final box from my list of competitions

[Pyramid Watcher]

8 minutes ago, bravehearts dad said:

Well Fraser ain’t there anymore and hopefully his influence left with him. For me the OF Colts contribution is zero. Taken the piss with fixtures and certainly never brought an increase in gates. 

You don’t say, you’ve never mentioned that before.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Pyramid Watcher

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

What was fictional about the proposal?

And I understand the SFA refused to sign off on all rule changes until the LL agreed to the revised Pyramid Play off rules.  The clubs still voted democratically

You've just answered your own question.

The proposal was presented as having no impact on the SPFL Playoff, and it did. The LL only months before having a unanimous vote to retain the SPFL Playoff as it was, were then forced to change it due to the consequence of the split vote on the Colts.

[Pyramid Watcher]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You've just answered your own question.

The proposal was presented as having no impact on the SPFL Playoff, and it did. The LL only months before having a unanimous vote to retain the SPFL Playoff as it was, were then forced to change it due to the consequence of the split vote on the Colts.

I don’t think that is right, the LL were forced to agree to the boundary change before the rules were passed.

[bravehearts dad]

Limited 250 with the Celts at home and under 1000 against the Gers. When we went to Airdrie to play the Celts they had about 10 fans compared to The Rose 120. When we go to Dumbarton next month I reckon The Rose will provide the majority of the crowd. Last week we had circa 780 against Cumbernauld Colts and as we know they have few fans. 
 

C’mon The Rose

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

"Convincing clubs" in what sense?   As the Chair surely he was duty bound to pass the information to clubs to allow them to make their own decisions, which they did?

The idea that he was some neutral party just passing on information about this is very clearly nonsense, as evidenced by the fact that he was forced off the board very soon after in relation to how he'd handled it.

If a chair is in favour of something happening then they can and frequently do present the situation in a very specific light which suits them. That's why this deal was framed in terms of the mystical £50k and also why the issues regarding the SFA's acceptance of the new rules mysteriously didn't come to light until well after the season had started.

The clubs certainly voted democratically, but much like other bigger democratic processes which happened in this country not so long ago, that doesn't mean they knew exactly what they were voting for.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by craigkillie

[Ginaro]

5 minutes ago, bravehearts dad said:

Limited 250 with the Celts at home and under 1000 against the Gers. When we went to Airdrie to play the Celts they had about 10 fans compared to The Rose 120. When we go to Dumbarton next month I reckon The Rose will provide the majority of the crowd. Last week we had circa 780 against Cumbernauld Colts and as we know they have few fans. 

You understand that the home club keeps the gate money so it doesn't matter what crowd turns up at Airdrie or Dumbarton for the B team games? To say the B teams "certainly never brought an increase in gates." is nonsense. 

That will have been the positive aspect of the B teams for the other clubs - playing a couple extra games to get OF gate money probably makes it a success for them.

And I can't recall there being much piss taking with the fixtures except with the OF games, but again that doesn't matter to the rest of the league.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Well Fraser ain’t there anymore and hopefully his influence left with him. For me the OF Colts contribution is zero. Taken the piss with fixtures and certainly never brought an increase in gates. 

Promoting two or three from tier 7 would be worth more to each club than the £2k from the Colts. 100 people spending £20 would break even and it would probably be higher than that.

It’s not just about money but that’s how you sell it. Even relegation in the first few years could be more lucrative to staying in the LL especially if dropping to the west.

[GNU_Linux]

Even if the OF have brought an increase in crowds the numbers wouldn't be sustainable long term see Challenge Cup attendances for a reference. Promoting more from tier 7 brings a more sustainable increase in attendances.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

You understand that the home club keeps the gate money so it doesn't matter what crowd turns up at Airdrie or Dumbarton for the B team games? To say the B teams "certainly never brought an increase in gates." is nonsense. 

That will have been the positive aspect of the B teams for the other clubs - playing a couple extra games to get OF gate money probably makes it a success for them.

And I can't recall there being much piss taking with the fixtures except with the OF games, but again that doesn't matter to the rest of the league.

Wasn't at least one Celtic? game scheduled that turned out clashed with an Airdrie game. Which wasn't called out until the week of the game?

Celtic more than Rangers have moved games off the 15:00 kick off time. Rangers most recently moving the East Stirlingshire game to 12:00 believed to be because of a clash with the Annan Scottish Cup game.

They also made requests to move games during the International weekends but were for the most part rejected. I think at least one team took them up on it. Maybe the Braves?

[Kirk St Moritz]

38 minutes ago, bravehearts dad said:

Limited 250 with the Celts at home and under 1000 against the Gers. When we went to Airdrie to play the Celts they had about 10 fans compared to The Rose 120. When we go to Dumbarton next month I reckon The Rose will provide the majority of the crowd. Last week we had circa 780 against Cumbernauld Colts and as we know they have few fans. 
 

C’mon The Rose

That would indicate that the Rangers game was the biggest attendance of season.  Although it did also appear that a higher than usual crowd came to your game against Cumbernauld Colts on a night that the Champion could be declared, which is natural also.   So I reckon attendances have been up.

[Kirk St Moritz]

35 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The idea that he was some neutral party just passing on information about this is very clearly nonsense, as evidenced by the fact that he was forced off the board very soon after in relation to how he'd handled it.

If a chair is in favour of something happening then they can and frequently do present the situation in a very specific light which suits them. That's why this deal was framed in terms of the mystical £50k and also why the issues regarding the SFA's acceptance of the new rules mysteriously didn't come to light until well after the season had started.

The clubs certainly voted democratically, but much like other bigger democratic processes which happened in this country not so long ago, that doesn't mean they knew exactly what they were voting for.

 

Not sure what is "mystical" about the £50k. 

And the SFA not passing the rules was not declared by the SFA until after the season had started and apparently came as news to everyone.  This was the doing and the fault of the SFA.  However, the rules were passed, the boundary line is effectively still in place as L2 teams nominated as per status quo, Bonnyrigg have pissed the League and will go forward to play-off as champions, well deserved.