English Premier League 2021/22 Season

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Just now, The Master said:

You don’t need a 3D model to determine where any point on Kane’s body is when placed inside an existing 3D model. 

As I said, this is simple geometry. 

Well clearly you do. They have used hawkeye to define a plane and if you wanted to find points on that plane the camera system is good enough. However when they are looking at points that are NOT on the plane they have to define a new plane and determine the difference in elevation. The cameras they have do not provide enough information to do that.

If the cameras they had could do this they wouldn't need to make fancy 3D maps of the pitches before the season started, they would be able to do it with the camera system in each match.

[Ginaro]

We're however many years into VAR offsides and people still don't know how it works? There is a Hawkeye 3D system in use to create the lines, and for tight decisions a vertical component (dashed line) is added so that you can have an accurate line from body parts which are in the air or leaning. 

 

[The Master]

10 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Well clearly you do. They have used hawkeye to define a plane and if you wanted to find points on that plane the camera system is good enough. However when they are looking at points that are NOT on the plane they have to define a new plane and determine the difference in elevation. The cameras they have do not provide enough information to do that.

If the cameras they had could do this they wouldn't need to make fancy 3D maps of the pitches before the season started, they would be able to do it with the camera system in each match.

They add the points in the 3D space based on where the players are.

The VAR "clicks" on a player's shirt/knee/head/whatever. That adds a point in the 3D model. It's then a simple process to project that point onto a plane (the pitch). It's then an even simpler process to draw a line that is both parallel to the z-axis (or x-axis, depending on which perspective they use), and intersects the projected point. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by The Master

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, Ginaro said:

We're however many years into VAR offsides and people still don't know how it works? There is a Hawkeye 3D system in use to create the lines, and for tight decisions a vertical component (dashed line) is added so that you can have an accurate line from body parts which are in the air or leaning. 

 

"the vertical component is added" is doing a lot of work here.

Read the EPL docs, they only have the VAR Hawkeye calibration on the 5 cameras (halfway line, 18 yard line, goal line), so they do vertical lines using 1 camera which is not as accurate and involves the ref drawing the line.

in the top spec FIFA system ALL the cameras are part of the VAR system and they can do lines above the pitch with much more precision than the EPL can. There is still a subjective element on picking the body part to check from. For example today it seems like they did not choose Kane's armpit and may have ignore the Southampton defender's shoulder.

So in conclusion there is no 3D system for creating the vertical lines in the EPL system because they use a single camera.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

8 minutes ago, The Master said:

They add the points in the 3D space based on where the players are.

The VAR "clicks" on a player's shirt/knee/head/whatever. That adds a point in the 3D model. It's then a simple process to project that point onto a plane (the pitch). It's then an even simpler process to draw a line that is both parallel to the z-axis (or x-axis, depending on which perspective they use), and intersects the projected point. 

The ref clicks the point on the player and the referee determines where they think that point intersects with the (3d modeled plane) pitch. There is no camera system in the EPL that does that for them.

 

[The Master]

2 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The ref clicks the point on the player and the referee determines where they think that point intersects with the (3d modeled plane) pitch.

No they don't.

2 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

There is no camera system in the EPL that does that for them.

 

A camera system isn't needed. All that's needed is the 3D model corresponding to the camera angle being used.

We used to see this happen in real time before this season. The VAR uses a cursor to indicate which points (parts of the respective bodies) to use in determining offside/onside.

Indeed, the vertical lines are actually added after as a visual aid for viewers. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

6 minutes ago, The Master said:

No they don't.

They do.

If you can't accept that is how single camera VAR offside works then you should stop talking.

I think you need to go look up how to define a point with planes in 3D space. You need 3 of them. (the pitch plane counts as 1, the camera counts as 1  leaving you a plane short... and making a guess.) It is geometry, although I wouldn't call it simple like you did earlier.

[Charles Stiles]

Putting the mechanics to one side, I thought the EPL had decided to bring themselves into line with the sensible nations and do away with such tight decisions. Obviously not. 

[mizfit]

[The Master]

1 minute ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

They do.

If you can't accept that is how single camera VAR offside works then you should stop talking.

I think you need to go look up how to define a point with planes in 3D space. You need 3 of them. (the pitch plane counts as 1, the camera counts as 1  leaving you a plane short... and making a guess.) It is geometry, although I wouldn't call it simple like you did earlier.

You only want me to stop talking because with every post you make, I easily come back and show how little you know about VAR (and, it would seem, geometry in general).

The chosen camera angle is synchronised with the 3D model. Selecting a point in the frame shown by the camera angle places a corresponding point in the model. It then is, despite your objections, simple geometry to project that point onto the plane, then draw a line that passes through it. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, The Master said:

You only want me to stop talking because with every post you make, I easily come back and show how little you know about VAR (and, it would seem, geometry in general).

The chosen camera angle is synchronised with the 3D model. Selecting a point in the frame shown by the camera angle places a corresponding point in the model. It then is, despite your objections, simple geometry to project that point onto the plane, then draw a line that passes through it. 

You are using jargo that means nothing... and you don't understand complex geometry. Have you done any university level geometry with vectors, planes etc?

"synchronised with the 3D model" what does that even mean? it is a model of a pitch, it is static, it isn't moving in space or time, there is nothing to synchronise with.

Projecting a point onto a plane is hard because you first have to identify where the point is in relation to your plane. Which the camera system in the EPL does not have enough data points to do.

 

[The Master]

There's no point in arguing with you anymore. You clearly hate VAR enough to ignore the basic principles as to how it works.

The near-universal suspicion of VAR means that if what you're saying is true (it isn't), it would have been "exposed" in the press by now. 

Spoiler: it hasn't. 

[The Naitch]

Ally McCoist is doing the Leicester vs Liverpool match tonight. Get in.

[sergie's no1 fan]

4 minutes ago, The Naitch said:

Ally McCoist is doing the Leicester vs Liverpool match tonight. Get in.

Should be a good game between these 2 anyway but thats the cherry on top of cake. 

 

[Grangemouth Bairn]

1 hour ago, mizfit said:

 

It can’t be good for his confidence playing for the worst team in the history of the BPL and now the fans have turned on him their is no real benefit in him being there. Hopefully Chelsea recall him.

[accies1874]

I'm fully expecting Leicester to get a proper pumping but they're capable of the odd mad result.

[accies1874]

Seeing Salah miss a penalty is weird

[Jambomo]

Glad they saved that, soft as f**k pen. 

[The Naitch]

Can't believe Salah missed the rebound off that save.

[lichtie23]

Terrible penalty