Let's All Laugh at the Royalist Nats and Greens

[jakedee]

Disagree there bud.  The UK is a nation state.

https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com//mobile/view/10.1093/oso/9780198841371.001.0001/oso-9780198841371

[Duries Air Freshener]

17 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

OK, I've watched the video. The guy appears to be singing a song about John De Sully, who was an English knight who must have fought at Bannockburn. Here are the full lyrics of the song

The ballad of J.D.S.
Chorus
Sharp sticks and pots and pans
Drove the English from our lands
At Bannockburn he had tae flee
So he didna bother puttin’ it on his CV

Verse 1
He was the toughest of the tough and the hardest of the hard
And here was a man that wizn'y made o' lard
Right hand man tae ee's boss the Black Prince
On the field of battle he’s turn ye intae mince

Chorus

Verse 2
Strongest o’ the strong and bravest o’ the brave
Ye widna mess wi this big guy he’d puut ye in yer grave
J.D.S. wiz hard as nails
But this was high on his list of fails

Chorus

Verse 3
He’d hae yer face intae the muck
Wi the sole o’ ees great big fuut
But the bunch o’ dafties a’ got stuck
An’ ‘ee hid tae rely on ees luck

Chorus

Verse 4
Although he was a Knight for eighty years
‘Ee nivur taked aboot it wi ‘ees peers
Even when ee’d hid too many warm beers
Because this was a battle that ended in tears

Chorus (Repeat)

It's not to my taste, but I honestly cannot see why you are accusing the singer of Anglophobia. It's a comedic song in a similar vein to "Hey Johnny Cope", which takes the piss out of the loser of the Battle of Prestonpans. Do you consider that to be anti-English, even though the words England and English don't even appear in that song?

If this song is Anglophobic, then so are Flower of Scotland. & The Star-Spangled Banner, both of which commemorate historical battles.  God Save the Queen is Scottophobic, as it commemorates General Wade and the Marsellaise is Austriaphobic because it commemorates a war between France & Austria.

If you want a proper offensive song, you might want to look at 10 German Bombers (banned by the English FA) and the sectarian chants banned by Rangers FC. I'm sure that in both cases, it's only a minority of Chelsea fans that sing them.

Many thanks for the thorough reply, LGH.

If we use the same logic that many Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba' Clubs (not something I'd recommend) apply to the songs Rangers fans sing, then we can attribute Anglophobia to this song, simply because it mentions 'the English'.

If you're going to attribute importance of context and meaning to songs such as this one, then you need to do it across the board, including to the ones at Ibrox.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[Duries Air Freshener]

14 minutes ago, jakedee said:

https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com//mobile/view/10.1093/oso/9780198841371.001.0001/oso-9780198841371

I'm afraid that link is incorrect.

The UK is a nation state, going by the very definition of the term.

[sophia]

2 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

I'm afraid that link is incorrect.

The UK is a nation state, going by the very definition of the term.

Thanks for clarifying

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Many thanks for the thorough reply, LGH.

If we use the same logic that many Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba' Clubs (not something I'd recommend) apply to the songs Rangers fans sing, then we can attribute Anglophobia to this song, simply because it mentions 'the English'.

If you're going to attribute importance of context and meaning to songs such as this one, then you need to do it across the board, including to the ones at Ibrox.

I'm seriously going to have to go into the semiotics of "up to our knees in ****** blood" to get what you're on about. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I'm seriously going to have to go into the semiotics of "up to our knees in ****** blood" to get what you're on about. 

All we require of you is to digest and reflect upon the points at hand without being smarmy or sarcastic, act in good faith and be humble.

Go into every exchange with the attitude that you might be able to learn something.

Snide isn't the way forward.  It gets us nowhere.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[lichtgilphead]

7 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Many thanks for the thorough reply, LGH.

If we use the same logic that many Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba' Clubs (not something I'd recommend) apply to the songs Rangers fans sing, then we can attribute Anglophobia to this song, simply because it mentions 'the English'.

If you're going to attribute importance of context and meaning to songs such as this one, then you need to do it across the board, including to the ones at Ibrox.

The difference is that the Ballad of JDS, Hey Johnny Cope, FoS, The Star-spangled Banner, GSTQ & The Marsellaise are not banned songs. 

UEFA & the English FA have banned "10 German Bombers," and Police Scotland, Celtic & Rangers produced a list of banned songs in 2011. Here's reference to the list in the Daily Record https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/old-firm-clash-songs-what-5060640

Somehow, I don't think that you are correct when you label UEFA, the English FA, Celtic, Rangers & Police Scotland as "Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba' Clubs"

 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

Whatever particular box you want to file this one under surely you'd at least acknowledge such behaviour and song choice is at least a bit of a poor choice no?

Of course there are other bad choices made across the board from other factions. It's best to call it out for what it is. As an English person I'm not ultra offended but it's definitely off putting to me, if I was there I would have felt a bit uncomfortable.

[Duries Air Freshener]

Just now, lichtgilphead said:

The difference is that the Ballad of JDS, Hey Johnny Cope, FoS, The Star-spangled Banner, GSTQ & The Marsellaise are not banned songs. 

UEFA & the English FA have banned "10 German Bombers," and Police Scotland, Celtic & Rangers produced a list of banned songs in 2011. Here's reference to the list in the Daily Record https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/old-firm-clash-songs-what-5060640

Somehow, I don't think that you are correct when you label UEFA, the English FA, Celtic, Rangers & Police Scotland as "Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba' Clubs"

 

I don't think the police banning something is an accurate barometer of whether a song is moral, immoral, sectarian, anglophobic, offensive, racist or anything else.

It simply means it's banned.

We're able to tell the nature of a song simply by analysing the words, just like you did with the Ballad of JDS.

I hate to disappoint, but I didn't label UEFA, the English FA, Rangers, Celtic and Police Scotland as 'Nats and supporters of provincial Scottish Fitba Clubs'

[jakedee]

I'm afraid that link is incorrect.
The UK is a nation state, going by the very definition of the term.

Those damn experts again eh. Political scientists, what are they like.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Keating_(political_scientist)

[Duries Air Freshener]

4 minutes ago, jakedee said:

Those damn experts again eh. Political scientists, what are they like.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Keating_(political_scientist)

"A nation state is a political unit where the state and nation are congruent."

State - "A state is a centralized political organization that imposes and enforces rules over a population within a territory." (Applies to the UK)

Nation - "A nation is a community of people formed on the basis of a combination of shared features such as language, history, ethnicity, culture and/or territory." (Applies to the UK).

Damn, those pesky definitions!

[welshbairn]

21 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

All we require of you is to digest and reflect upon the points at hand without being smarmy or sarcastic, act in good faith and be humble.

Go into every exchange with the attitude that you might be able to learn something.

Snide isn't the way forward.  It gets us nowhere.

Have you noticed the thread title?

 

[lichtgilphead]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Whatever particular box you want to file this one under surely you'd at least acknowledge such behaviour and song choice is at least a bit of a poor choice no?

Of course there are other bad choices made across the board from other factions. It's best to call it out for what it is. As an English person I'm not ultra offended but it's definitely off putting to me, if I was there I would have felt a bit uncomfortable.

What behaviour are you alleging was displayed in the video?

All I saw was a bit of film of someone singing an unfunny comedic song.

6 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

I don't think the police banning something is an accurate barometer of whether a song is moral, immoral, sectarian, anglophobic, offensive, racist or anything else.

It simply means it's banned.

A quick google shows that ignoring police opinions may result in a Crimnal record.

I'm sure that Grant Adams didn't learn any of these songs when watching his dad at Gayfield.

 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

19 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

What behaviour are you alleging was displayed in the video?

All I saw was a bit of film of someone singing an unfunny comedic song.

A quick google shows that ignoring police opinions may result in a Crimnal record.

I'm sure that Grant Adams didn't learn any of these songs when watching his dad at Gayfield.

 

I'm surprised you didn't work out what I was saying tbh...

The "behaviour" was the choice to sing a song that has such lyrics and is definitely not the type of thing the Indy movement wants to associate itself with and in my opinion is a dogwhistle to the fringe lunatics of the movement. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

21 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

What behaviour are you alleging was displayed in the video?

All I saw was a bit of film of someone singing an unfunny comedic song.

A quick google shows that ignoring police opinions may result in a Crimnal record.

I'm sure that Grant Adams didn't learn any of these songs when watching his dad at Gayfield.

 

I'm saying that if you apply the same standards as many supporters of provincial Scottish Clubs do to the songs Rangers fans sing, then it must be Anglophobic.

As for the Grant Adam screenshot, I'll remind you of what I said previously:

"I don't think the police banning something is an accurate barometer of whether a song is moral, immoral, sectarian, anglophobic, offensive, racist or anything else.

It simply means it's banned."

[lichtgilphead]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I'm surprised you didn't work out what I was saying tbh...

The "behaviour" was the choice to sing a song that has such lyrics and is definitely not the type of thing the Indy movement wants to associate itself with and in my opinion is a dogwhistle to the fringe lunatics of the movement. 

Can you explain why you consider the lyrics to be "a poor choice"? They seem to be taking the piss out of someone (who I had ever heard of before today), who was part of an uninvited invading army, was then beaten in battle and finally had to retreat.

 

[lichtgilphead]

15 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

I'm saying that if you apply the same standards as many supporters of provincial Scottish Clubs do to the songs Rangers fans sing, then it must be Anglophobic.

As for the Grant Adam screenshot, I'll remind you of what I said previously:

"I don't think the police banning something is an accurate barometer of whether a song is moral, immoral, sectarian, anglophobic, offensive, racist or anything else.

It simply means it's banned."

Ah yes. So, "send them homeward to think again" is anglopobic but"F*ck the P*** and the V******" is not sectarian or offensive according to your barometer.

Thank you for this insight.

[Duries Air Freshener]

2 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Ah yes. So, "send them homeward to think again" is anglopobic but"F*ck the P*** and the V******" is not sectarian or offensive according to your barometer.

Thank you for this insight.

That’s not what I’m saying at all.

I suspect you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Or Cathy Newman has hacked your account

[Dan Steele]

30 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

I don't think the police banning something is an accurate barometer of whether a song is moral, immoral, sectarian, anglophobic, offensive, racist or anything else.

It simply means it's banned

I'm trying hard to make sense of this. You seem to be saying that the police are banning something which is somehow floating free of any social or cultural ties. "It's banned because it's banned" is a ridiculous statement. What's led to the banning of a song, then?

[Albus Bulbasaur]

17 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

That’s not what I’m saying at all.

I suspect you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Or Cathy Newman has hacked your account

 

31 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Can you explain why you consider the lyrics to be "a poor choice"? They seem to be taking the piss out of someone (who I had ever heard of before today), who was part of an uninvited invading army, was then beaten in battle and finally had to retreat.

 

This is it. I actually enjoy some of your posts and think you have some interesting points but this hard shelled exterior thing you often do where you pretend not to understand something is a bit condescending and hard to reasonably engage with.