The Gender Debate

[Wee Bully]

3 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

yes

Not a lot you can say to that. 

[picklish]

what i find weird about the sex/gender defintion problem is that it seems that trans folk are essentialist about gender, and are suggesting that there are set gender roles for men and women (which is why they feel they are in the wrong body, have the wrong gender - that there is /something/ it is to be, to be a man or woman), but this seems at odds with the concept of gender-as-a-construct, gender fluidity etc. I can't really get my head around that aspect.

[Billy Jean King]

On 15/05/2023 at 19:34, andyg83 said:

This is where the right wing loons get traction though. It's crazy when laid out like that. 

Honestly mate you are gaining zero traction on here !

[Theroadlesstravelled]

The lines are blurred between the definitions of sex and gender. Sex is not binary.

You cannot call a transwoman a male without causing offense. And that’s what this is all about.

[Cappiecat1.2]

Should gender reveal parties actually be called sex assigned at birth parties?

 

[strichener]

21 hours ago, TxRover said:

Have you even looked at a dictionary:

Sex - 

1) the male, female, or sometimes intersex division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions or physical characteristics such as genitals, XX and XY chromosomes, etc.

2) a label assigned to a person at birth, usually male or female and sometimes intersex, and typically based on genital configuration.See Usage note at the current entry.

3) the sum of the structural and functional differences by which male, female, and sometimes intersex organisms are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.

Gender -

1) either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior.

2) a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification.

3) the concept or system of categories such as male and female.

 

Whoops…sex and gender are NOT identical, and are, in fact, not necessarily related.

See, this interests me.  We are always told that language evolved and I wondered when dictionaries started differentiating between sex and gender which were only considered synonyms.  Here is the 2015 definition of gender from the Cambridge Dictionary -

Quote

gender noun (SEX)

B2 [U] the physical and/or social condition of being male or female:Does this test show the gender of the baby?Discrimination on the basis of race, gender, age or disability is not allowed.

So not 1900 as you suggest but a rather more recent development, 2022 in the case of this dictionary.

[welshbairn]

37 minutes ago, strichener said:

See, this interests me.  We are always told that language evolved and I wondered when dictionaries started differentiating between sex and gender which were only considered synonyms.  Here is the 2015 definition of gender from the Cambridge Dictionary -

So not 1900 as you suggest but a rather more recent development, 2022 in the case of this dictionary.

'physical and/or social condition' 

[Cappiecat1.2]

18 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

'physical and/or social condition of being male or female' 

Makes better sense without the selective editing. 

[strichener]

30 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

'physical and/or social condition' 

I'm only referring to the changing use of language to reflect societal changes.  It is wrong to use language as if it defines societal behaviours rather than the other way around.

The use of the word gay would be a prime example.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

So not 1900 as you suggest but a rather more recent development, 2022 in the case of this dictionary.

Fair enough, it was a flippant response on the age of the dictionary…

Madison Bentley defined gender as the “socialized obverse of sex” in 1945.

John Money introduced gender identity in 1955.

The American Physiological Society officially adopted the term into a title in 1982.

[Mr Waldo]

57 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Fair enough, it was a flippant response on the age of the dictionary…

Madison Bentley defined gender as the “socialized obverse of sex” in 1945.

John Money introduced gender identity in 1955.

The American Physiological Society officially adopted the term into a title in 1982.

You REALLY want to introduce John Money into this thread?

A person described as, oh let me think, a lying deviant c*nt of a man.

Save some time, just read about the Reimer twins.

[Jeff Venom]

3 hours ago, strichener said:

See, this interests me.  We are always told that language evolved and I wondered when dictionaries started differentiating between sex and gender which were only considered synonyms.  Here is the 2015 definition of gender from the Cambridge Dictionary 

I mind being on a course a number of years back on which the continued evolution of English was discussed. Those with linguistics knowledge will know better than I but I seem to recall people tending to feel that English is relatively fixed and rigid when in actual fact the language is almost always in flux, more so than other languages. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Jeff Venom

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Mr Waldo said:

You REALLY want to introduce John Money into this thread?

A person described as, oh let me think, a lying deviant c*nt of a man.

Save some time, just read about the Reimer twins.

He coined a usage in 1955, his other “issue” are irrelevant to that point. Adolph was involved with the Beetle…and we don’t burn Beetles.

[andyg83]

21 hours ago, picklish said:

what i find weird about the sex/gender defintion problem is that it seems that trans folk are essentialist about gender, and are suggesting that there are set gender roles for men and women (which is why they feel they are in the wrong body, have the wrong gender - that there is /something/ it is to be, to be a man or woman), but this seems at odds with the concept of gender-as-a-construct, gender fluidity etc. I can't really get my head around that aspect.

Yip. Full of contradiction. 

[picklish]

So's everything though, even if 99.999% of people are male or female, some are intersex, things don't fit in neat boxes.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong that there is something that it feels like to be a man or a woman, but I'm far from convinced. I wonder if society didn't impose strict gender roles, then would gender dysphoria exist?

Theres an element where I think the wider, trans-supporting youth treat this as their punk/rave equivalent, lacking coalescence around a generation-gap artistic scene, and fair fucks to them 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, picklish said:

Theres an element where I think the wider, trans-supporting youth treat this as their punk/rave equivalent, lacking coalescence around a generation-gap artistic scene, and fair fucks to them 

The trans movement isn't cultural or artistic its political. It's about obtaining legal rights, as with the wider LGBT movement.

[picklish]

Sure, but I think that's also true for multiple previous cultural movements, loads of hip-hop, rave and the criminal justice bill 1994, jazz and segregation. Something can be both artistic and political

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, picklish said:

Sure, but I think that's also true for multiple previous cultural movements, loads of hip-hop, rave and the criminal justice bill 1994, jazz and segregation. Something can be both artistic and political

Trying to dismiss the trans movement as a cultural youth movement rather than a political rights movement is the aim of its detractors. I'm wary of contributing to that. I also don't see any evidence of distinct trans culture - music, fashion, etc. If such a thing exists then only as part of the wider LGBT bundle in things like Eurovision.

[picklish]

But to be clear, I'm not speaking specifically about those directly affected, the few trans folk I've met face a ton of prejudice and of course just want to live free from a social mania that castigates them for existing.

I'm not forgetting that armchair speculation like this is borne out of curiosity about coherence of arguments and social movements, edge cases, and other largely inconsequential ideas. It's nothing like the same as lived experience.

[picklish]

It's not an attempt to dismiss it, but trying to place it in wider context. I don't think of course that it's /only/ a cultural youth movement, but it surely exists, no?

I'm largely perplexed why is it that gender dysphoria creates such polarisation, when e.g. functional disorders (just to pick at random a different, but more common mental health issue), where people also face prejudice, does not. What is it specifically that makes it a wedge issue, and engenders endless opinion columns, forum discussions and hot takes?