The Gender Debate

[carpetmonster]

27 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

I am fairly sure I have tried to address it, I will try again.

 

The 1% figure is from retrospective reviews, of data going back years, yes?  Literally back to the 80s at least.  I am pretty sure it includes some of 'The Dutch Study' which had very specific selection criteria - the teenagers involved all had dysphoria from a young age which remained or intensified at puberty and they had to have no other pre-existing mental health difficulties.

 

So not really representative of todays transgender population - back then it was a relatively rare thing to be dysphoric about your sex and predominantly affected boys who had been suffering these feelings since early childhood. Unlike the predominant group now of girls and young women, who in some cases had no history of dysphoria at all until entering puberty. 

Clearly providers are also not taking comorbidities into consideration, preferring to assume that they are caused by the distress of being trans, even if the young person had these difficulties before questioning their gender/sex.

In some of the studies included,  the participants who had medical or surgical transition were also given psychotherapy or some other intervention, with no way to differentiate what any improvement was attributable to.

The paper states the sources it draws from. it's still a relatively rare thing to be dysphoric; trans people are about 0.5% of the population. 

27 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Lastly, so many patients have been lost to follow up that longer term data is unavailable or very limited.  There has been no willingness to do a quality study on this, perhaps because like in the Tavistock study, the researchers admitted that they thought they would struggle for participants if they had a chance to be in a 'no intervention' control group.  Plus the fact that who was in the control group would become physically obvious to all over time.

 

It's impossible to use a few retrospective data reviews to keep repeating the 1% figure, when we can see that the picture is changing all the time. Regret rates were much lower in the past when there was much more 'gatekeeping' (or careful assessment) of who would be offered such treatment.

It's still the case that there's plenty of gatekeeping. The wait to get a first appointment for gender dysphoria consultancy in the UK currently runs between 18 months at the low end and 6 years at the higher, depending on NHS trust. The idea that you get to skip waiting lists if you need a phalloplasty rather than a hip replacement doesn't really hold up. 

27 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Check it out, I didn't even try and slander or discredit the people involved in the papers you cited. Mad eh!

 

And oh my word I missed any and all of your Dawson Park Boy drama, amazingly I don't depend on getting excited about who said what. Plus wtf there's no money being made by the gender clinics?

There's no DPB drama, he's just a rancid bigot who's been banned multiple times for rancid bigotry. There likely is money being made by gender clinics in countries where healthcare is private - I think TXRover posted some figures 10 pages or so back. However when Matt Walsh reckoned YouTube demonetizing him cost him $1.5m, Kellie-Jay Keen boasts about having no mortgage and 'making so much money it's embarrassing' then it's very clear that peddling hate to right wingers is lucrative. Even Graham Linehan managed to stop hitting his keyboard with his face for long enough to have a merch section on his website for a brief period. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by carpetmonster

[TxRover]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

Incredible lack of self-awareness here.

You take the opposite stance to the poster by stating that a woman doesn't have to be a woman (forgive my use of potentially inappropriate wording here, I haven't checked the dictionary definitions this week!).  You also meet your own posted definition of a bigot on the basis that you are prejudiced against the group who hold different opinions as your own on the subject of gender.

 

You failed in your own argument due to conflating gender and sex in your post. I simply pointed out the results of her argument in simple terms.

 

Edited to address your edited addition:

So, tell me, if you demand a person in woman’s attire use a men’s restroom, would that not be akin to demanding they wear a patch of cloth identifying them? Yes, it is. Next, who demanded certain groups of people wear little coloured patches of cloth? Yep, you got it.

Edited June 4, 2023 by TxRover

[strichener]

3 minutes ago, TxRover said:

You failed in your own argument due to conflating gender and sex in your post. I simply pointed out the results of her argument in simple terms.

I am not conflating anything in my post thank you.

Meanwhile you are taking the "it isn't me, it's you" tact.  As I stated self-awareness is totally lacking.

Edited June 4, 2023 by strichener

[TxRover]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

I am not conflating anything in my post thank you.

Meanwhile you are taking the "it isn't me, it's you" tact.  As I stated self-awareness is totally lacking.

Nope…you equated sex and gender in your response…along with the typical dismissive “whatever it is this week” type comment. Your mask is stripping.

[f_c_dundee]

7 minutes ago, TxRover said:

You failed in your own argument due to conflating gender and sex in your post. I simply pointed out the results of her argument in simple terms.

 

Edited to address your edited addition:

So, tell me, if you demand a person in woman’s attire use a men’s restroom, would that not be akin to demanding they wear a patch of cloth identifying them? Yes, it is. Next, who demanded certain groups of people wear little coloured patches of cloth? Yep, you got it.

No it's not, it's nothing like it. It's insulting to the people whose past misery you're trying to co-opt into this. 

 

All it would take would be for men to ignore the transwomen and get on with their day. As in men accept the non conformity in their space. 

 

"No evidence that it's a problem for women" 

 

Evidence is not limited to men prosecuted for specific crimes you know. Many women clearly have a problem with it and are entitled to disagree with being told to budge up and accept these men in their facilities and groups. 

 

Speaking of evidence, there must be a whole lot of it showing all the terrible issues transwomen had in male facilities? 

[f_c_dundee]

20 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

The paper states the sources it draws from. it's still a relatively rare thing to be dysphoric; trans people are about 0.5% of the population. 

Yes I know, I looked hence my comments.

20 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

It's still the case that there's plenty of gatekeeping. The wait to get a first appointment for gender dysphoria consultancy in the UK currently runs between 18 months at the low end and 6 years at the higher, depending on NHS trust. The idea that you get to skip waiting lists if you need a phalloplasty rather than a hip replacement doesn't really hold up. 

That's your idea, you made it up. Waiting lists are not gate keeping or a careful assessment.

20 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

There's no DPB drama, he's just a rancid bigot who's been banned multiple times for rancid bigotry. There likely is money being made by gender clinics in countries where healthcare is private - I think TXRover posted some figures 10 pages or so back. However when Matt Walsh reckoned YouTube demonetizing him cost him $1.5m, Kellie-Jay Keen boasts about having no mortgage and 'making so much money it's embarrassing' then it's very clear that peddling hate to right wingers is lucrative. Even Graham Linehan managed to stop hitting his keyboard with his face for long enough to have a merch section on his website for a brief period. 

Huh? Merch? 

 

I was responding to your comment about money. If it's about merch and YouTubers I don't even know what's the relevance at all now. 

[carpetmonster]

12 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

No it's not, it's nothing like it. It's insulting to the people whose past misery you're trying to co-opt into this. 

 

All it would take would be for men to ignore the transwomen and get on with their day. As in men accept the non conformity in their space. 

 

"No evidence that it's a problem for women" 

 

Evidence is not limited to men prosecuted for specific crimes you know. Many women clearly have a problem with it and are entitled to disagree with being told to budge up and accept these men in their facilities and groups. 

 

Speaking of evidence, there must be a whole lot of it showing all the terrible issues transwomen had in male facilities? 

There is; here you go - https://juliaserano.medium.com/transgender-people-bathrooms-and-sexual-predators-what-the-data-say-2f31ae2a7c06

 

ETA - to save the click 

Sandy James, Jody Herman, Susan Rankin, Mara Keisling, Lisa Mottet, and Ma’ayan Anafi, The report of the 2015 US transgender survey, (Washington, DC: National Center for Transgender Equality, 2016).

This was a large survey of 27,715 transgender people across the United States. The main bullet-points from their “Experiences in Restrooms” section (pp. 224–230) reads:

Nearly one-quarter (24%) of respondents said that someone had questioned or challenged their presence in a restroom in the past year.

Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents reported that someone denied them access to a restroom in the past year.

One in eight (12%) respondents were verbally harassed, physically attacked, or sexually assaulted when accessing or using a restroom in the past year.

More than half (59%) avoided using a public restroom in the past year because they were afraid of having problems.

Nearly one-third (32%) limited the amount they ate or drank to avoid using the restroom in the past year.

Eight percent (8%) reported having a urinary tract infection, kidney infection, or another kidney-related problem in the past year as a result of avoiding restrooms.

 

Gabriel R. Murchison, Madina Agénor, Sari L. Reisner, and Ryan J. Watson, “School restroom and locker room restrictions and sexual assault risk among transgender youth,” Pediatrics 143, no. 6 (2019), e20182902.

From the Discussion section: “In our sample of transgender and nonbinary US adolescents, the 12-month prevalence of sexual assault was 25.9%, substantially higher than national rates of 15% among cisgender high school girls and 4% among cisgender boys. After adjusting for potential confounders, compared with nonrestricted youth of the same gender identity and sex assigned at birth, school restroom and locker room restrictions were associated with 1.26 times the risk of sexual assault for transgender boys, 1.42 times the risk for nonbinary youth AFAB, and 2.49 times the risk for transgender girls.”

Of course, this rampant harassment and assault of trans people in public bathrooms inevitably results in some gender non-conforming (GNC) cis people facing similar abuses under the mistaken presumption that they are transgender. Indeed, in the wake of the 2015 “bathroom bill” scourge, Vox published an article entitled Women are getting harassed in bathrooms because of anti-transgender hysteria. An article from earlier in 2021 in the UK (where anti-trans sentiment is even more intense) reads: Butch lesbians are facing “increasing harassment” in public toilets.

Edited June 4, 2023 by carpetmonster

[carpetmonster]

2 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Yes I know, I looked hence my comments.

So...the study isn't representative of 'today's trans community'...how?

2 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

That's your idea, you made it up. Waiting lists are not gate keeping or a careful assessment.

Waiting lists are then followed by counselling and therapy. Which you know. 

2 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Huh? Merch? 

 

I was responding to your comment about money. If it's about merch and YouTubers I don't even know what's the relevance at all now. 

T-shirts and such. Of course he couldn't keep it up, because he's fucking deranged, but there's plenty high profile transphobes making plenty coin. Keep trying to gaslight yourself tho. 

[f_c_dundee]

10 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

There is; here you go - https://juliaserano.medium.com/transgender-people-bathrooms-and-sexual-predators-what-the-data-say-2f31ae2a7c06

 

ETA - to save the click 

Sandy James, Jody Herman, Susan Rankin, Mara Keisling, Lisa Mottet, and Ma’ayan Anafi, The report of the 2015 US transgender survey, (Washington, DC: National Center for Transgender Equality, 2016).

This was a large survey of 27,715 transgender people across the United States. The main bullet-points from their “Experiences in Restrooms” section (pp. 224–230) reads:

Nearly one-quarter (24%) of respondents said that someone had questioned or challenged their presence in a restroom in the past year.

Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents reported that someone denied them access to a restroom in the past year.

One in eight (12%) respondents were verbally harassed, physically attacked, or sexually assaulted when accessing or using a restroom in the past year.

More than half (59%) avoided using a public restroom in the past year because they were afraid of having problems.

Nearly one-third (32%) limited the amount they ate or drank to avoid using the restroom in the past year.

Eight percent (8%) reported having a urinary tract infection, kidney infection, or another kidney-related problem in the past year as a result of avoiding restrooms.

 

Gabriel R. Murchison, Madina Agénor, Sari L. Reisner, and Ryan J. Watson, “School restroom and locker room restrictions and sexual assault risk among transgender youth,” Pediatrics 143, no. 6 (2019), e20182902.

From the Discussion section: “In our sample of transgender and nonbinary US adolescents, the 12-month prevalence of sexual assault was 25.9%, substantially higher than national rates of 15% among cisgender high school girls and 4% among cisgender boys. After adjusting for potential confounders, compared with nonrestricted youth of the same gender identity and sex assigned at birth, school restroom and locker room restrictions were associated with 1.26 times the risk of sexual assault for transgender boys, 1.42 times the risk for nonbinary youth AFAB, and 2.49 times the risk for transgender girls.”

Of course, this rampant harassment and assault of trans people in public bathrooms inevitably results in some gender non-conforming (GNC) cis people facing similar abuses under the mistaken presumption that they are transgender. Indeed, in the wake of the 2015 “bathroom bill” scourge, Vox published an article entitled Women are getting harassed in bathrooms because of anti-transgender hysteria. An article from earlier in 2021 in the UK (where anti-trans sentiment is even more intense) reads: Butch lesbians are facing “increasing harassment” in public toilets.

A self-reported survey of teenagers and a discussion paper about the survey results? That's it?

[f_c_dundee]

12 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

So...the study isn't representative of 'today's trans community'...how?

Waiting lists are then followed by counselling and therapy. Which you know. 

T-shirts and such. Of course he couldn't keep it up, because he's fucking deranged, but there's plenty high profile transphobes making plenty coin. Keep trying to gaslight yourself tho. 

so...they're doing this activism to make money off t-shirts?

[carpetmonster]

Just now, f_c_dundee said:

A self-reported survey of teenagers and a discussion paper about the survey results? That's it?

No; also a survey of over 27,000 people. You should have read that on the way down to the second one. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

so...they're doing this activism to make money off t-shirts?

In some cases absolutely yes. 

https://thefamousartistbirdyrose.com

[f_c_dundee]

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

No; also a survey of over 27,000 people. You should have read that on the way down to the second one. 

yeah i did to be fair, got confused.

 

Then laughed my ass off when I saw you had given us a link from Julia Serrano.   Nice.

 

Have a nice quote people. 

 

[TxRover]

14 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

No it's not, it's nothing like it. It's insulting to the people whose past misery you're trying to co-opt into this. 

 

All it would take would be for men to ignore the transwomen and get on with their day. As in men accept the non conformity in their space. 

 

"No evidence that it's a problem for women" 

 

Evidence is not limited to men prosecuted for specific crimes you know. Many women clearly have a problem with it and are entitled to disagree with being told to budge up and accept these men in their facilities and groups. 

 

Speaking of evidence, there must be a whole lot of it showing all the terrible issues transwomen had in male facilities? 

So branding people is different then than now? Bullshit.

Men generally do ignore things in the restroom, but an individual in a dress and makeup in the men’s room draws attention, generally unwelcome. Dress in unisex clothing, no makeup and a masculine hairstyle, and you’ll be in and out no bother, because no one will even look twice…and I suspect the converse is true too.

Show me all these women you speak for…when they appointed you, for how long, and on what terms. So, you’ve no doubt leafed through the More in Common study to find things that reinforce your prejudice, but failed to notice the salient points. When studies say there is concern about trans bathroom use pre-surgery, that misses the basic problem of how do you tell? I guess what is really being said is there are women who object out of a fear driven by inaccurate right-wing media portrayals.

As for problems, the Harvard study was one of the first out that showed a clear and significant increase in threat to trans individuals due to the r3cent crop of bathroom bills. A number of other studies are underway, but due to the recent nature of many bathroom bills and the time required to collect, validate and produce a study, are not yet complete.

 

[f_c_dundee]

2 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

In some cases absolutely yes. 

https://thefamousartistbirdyrose.com

duh she was an artist before this. if people don't like her ore recent designs, I'm sure they won't buy them.

[carpetmonster]

Just now, f_c_dundee said:

yeah i did to be fair, got confused.

 

Then laughed my ass off when I saw you had given us a link from Julia Serrano.   Nice.

 

Have a nice quote people. 

 

So your bit about ‘I don’t find trans people icky’ was another lie then. 

[carpetmonster]

2 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

duh she was an artist before this. if people don't like her ore recent designs, I'm sure they won't buy them.

And if people didn’t buy them, she’d probably go back to doing whatever else it was she was doing before, I’d imagine. She hasn’t, ergo there must be money in it. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by carpetmonster

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

Gringo is Dawson Park Boy.

"I've never participated in this debate" is another cracker from P&B's man of many faces.

[f_c_dundee]

2 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

So your bit about ‘I don’t find trans people icky’ was another lie then. 

That's icky objectifying of women, f**k all to do with being trans. 

 

I've referred to AGP behaviour obliquely maybe twice in total in all these posts, do you want to discuss it more?

[carpetmonster]

6 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

That's icky objectifying of women, f**k all to do with being trans. 

 

I've referred to AGP behaviour obliquely maybe twice in total in all these posts, do you want to discuss it more?

It's a person describing a sexual fantasy, much the same way as you'd find in 50 Shades Of Gray, the office teaboy written letters page in a scud book, and likely since the first caveman drew a giant boaby on a cave wall with mammoth poop. 

If because it's a trans person describing a sexual fantasy, your mind instantly goes to the inventions of a long-denounced weirdo like Ray Blanchard then you should discuss that more, but with a shrink and not me.