Russian invasion of Ukraine

[welshbairn]

21 minutes ago, virginton said:

Neither will have any impact on anti-corruption efforts because

1) The EU will not apply its objective criteria because Ukraine is decades away from being suitable for integration. Fast-track status for Ukraine will be a subjective political decision if or more likely when it takes place.

2) Western democracies are happy to arm any amount of corrupt regimes so long as they are on the same side of the conflict. Not least given the extra profits that Western arms manufacturers make on the back of an inefficient supply of weapons to the soldiers who need it. 

What would you suggest the Western democracies now do, given the situation that current exists and not going back in time to correct mistakes you no doubt think were made?  

[ICTChris]

Reports of a Ukrainian counter attack in Bakhmut.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Loving the assertions that 1) corruption is a Soviet problem, which handily deflects attention from the key role played by the West in creating the looting kleptocracy, and 2) Ukraine is now fighting a War on Corruption that will definitely uncover the problem rather than signalling the replacement of one corrupt elite with another like every other anti-corruption campaign to date. 

Loving the deliberate misinterpretation of the use of Soviet to indicate an area that has corruption issues (pre-, during, and post USSR), and the assumption that no improvement is possible.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Neither will have any impact on anti-corruption efforts because

1) The EU will not apply its objective criteria because Ukraine is decades away from being suitable for integration. Fast-track status for Ukraine will be a subjective political decision if or more likely when it takes place.

2) Western democracies are happy to arm any amount of corrupt regimes so long as they are on the same side of the conflict. Not least given the extra profits that Western arms manufacturers make on the back of an inefficient supply of weapons to the soldiers who need it. 

1) is of questionable veracity, and 2) isn’t true because the Western democracies will happily arm both sides whenever possible, with the French and the U.S./UK being the usual two sides, and the Germans, Swedes and Italians tossing in random shipments here and there. Also, classifying the U.S. as a Western democracy is now somewhat questionable as we certainly seem to be in transition to an electoral autocracy, a form of government ideal for selling weapons, with few questions, to anyone with money.

[MazzyStar]

3 hours ago, TxRover said:

The ugly reality of corruption worldwide is that the relative lack of corruption in the so called First World is the exception, rather than the rule. Ukraine made tied for 116th of 180 in the 2020-2022 ranking, Russia tied at 137th…so there’s not that much between them. It’s a depressing fact that the rest of the world sees our standards of living and many are willing to do damn near anything to try to reach that level. There are some interesting outliers, like Bhutan at tied for 25th, one spot behind the U.S., or Uruguay tied at 14th, a spot in front of the UK tied at 18th.

This map of the corruption perceptions index is useful:

 

That map is hilarious. Straight out of Langley, Virginia. 

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

That map is hilarious. Straight out of Langley, Virginia. 

Doubt Langley would have the U.S. at 24th…

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Reports of a Ukrainian counter attack in Bakhmut.

Mainly from Poles by the looks of things:

 

No prizes for guessing what chuja means in Polish.

[welshbairn]

Igor's take on the special military operation so far, lions led by donkeys basically.

 

[MazzyStar]

9 hours ago, TxRover said:

Doubt Langley would have the U.S. at 24th…

The corruption perceptions index was published by Transparency International. 

This is who funds Transparency International:

According to its 2012 Annual Report, it is funded by western governments (with almost €5 million from the UK government) and several multinational companies, including oil companies Exxon Mobil and Shell, hedge funds KKR and Wermuth Asset Management, Deloitte and Ernst & Young. 
 

Looks like TI has some internal corruption to investigate. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by MazzyStar

[vikingTON]

18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

What would you suggest the Western democracies now do, given the situation that current exists and not going back in time to correct mistakes you no doubt think were made?  

It's not incumbent on Western democracies or indeed anyone else to solve the problem of Ukrainian corruption. They should however be clear-eyed about that reality instead of pretending that waving a hand and shouting 'freedom!' will make those problems disappear. 

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

The corruption perceptions index was published by Transparency International. 

This is who funds Transparency International:

According to its 2012 Annual Report, it is funded by western governments (with almost €5 million from the UK government) and several multinational companies, including oil companies Exxon Mobil and Shell, hedge funds KKR and Wermuth Asset Management, Deloitte and Ernst & Young. 
 

Looks like TI has some internal corruption to investigate. 

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[LongTimeLurker]

Plenty of skepticism about the alleged Bakhmut counteroffensive:

Suspect it's only a matter of time until the Ukrainians pull out of Bakhmut and the only angle that's liable to slow things down is the weather moving to above zero temperatures and the mud that brings.

[MazzyStar]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

It’s not going to rank western countries high on the corruption scale since they are the ones funding it. The US should not be as high as 24 (when 1 is the least corrupt) on any corruption index and any non biased would have ranked the US as much more corrupt. 

[TxRover]

19 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

It’s not going to rank western countries high on the corruption scale since they are the ones funding it. The US should not be as high as 24 (when 1 is the least corrupt) on any corruption index and any non biased would have ranked the US as much more corrupt. 

OK, and back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Plenty of skepticism about the alleged Bakhmut counteroffensive:

Suspect it's only a matter of time until the Ukrainians pull out of Bakhmut and the only angle that's liable to slow things down is the weather moving to above zero temperatures and the mud that brings.

Igor thinks they'll be trying to push South to put a wedge in the Donbass/Crimea bridge, while Wagner and the rest of the Russkies keep bashing their heads on Bakhmut, for little purpose.

[MazzyStar]

2 minutes ago, TxRover said:

OK, and back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

I just said. It’s biased nonsense. 

[TxRover]

1 minute ago, MazzyStar said:

I just said. It’s biased nonsense. 

Well, stomping your feet and crying it’s bad isn’t the answer…

…back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[MazzyStar]

[TxRover]

Just now, MazzyStar said:

OK, so you can make an unsubstantiated statement alleging the rankings are biased, but when asked for the evidence, you don’t have any. Makes sense.

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, TxRover said:

 

Well, stomping your feet and crying it’s bad isn’t the answer…

…back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

The fact that they use private consultancies, businesses and think tanks to gauge their corruption perception index and ignore the general public leaves room for skewed findings. They don't count tax fraud as corruption for instance. Exxon are hardly likely to perceive the US Government as corrupt when it's been their lobbyists doing the corrupting. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by welshbairn

[MazzyStar]

1 minute ago, TxRover said:

OK, so you can make an unsubstantiated statement alleging the rankings are biased, but when asked for the evidence, you don’t have any. Makes sense.

You done yet? It’s clearly not an unsubstantiated statement, the evidence is right there. Not only does Transparency International receive money from western governments and corporations it was also founded by ex world bank employees, so it clearly has colluded with western governments at some point, which is why the US and it’s allies are favourably ranked.