Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gibby82]

1 hour ago, highlandcowden said:

You're right,it would have been much better for future law&order to just let the Russians march in

I’m sure someone on this thread said literally this during the first few days of the war.

[welshbairn]

14 hours ago, Sweet Pete said:

Watching a YouTube video about Ukrainian partisans and it reminded me of the first few days of the full scale invasion last year when the Ukrainian state were handing out rifles, RPGs, grenades and molotov cocktails to literally anyone who turned up at their local post office (or whatever); after the war, how will Ukraine control the unregistered, freely distributed military firearms? Bearing in mind, that it wasn't only a few rusty AKs that were handed out, but all sorts of small arms and heavy weapons, plus bounty captured from Russian (or pro) forces. I mean, it wasn't exactly a stable, wealthy, fair country before 2014/2022. A massive proliferation of arms and no tracking of same on top of war torn civil divisions will probably all work out fine.

Another concern are the various hi tech hand held missile launchers that have been supplied. If bad actors get hold of a few and smuggle them out of the country they could cause havoc, nearby an airport for example. Not sure if some of them can be disabled or traced remotely. 

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

1 hour ago, Sweet Pete said:

Weird take. I'm not suggesting that Ukraine shouldn't have defended itself against invasion, nor am I suggesting it shouldn't still continue to do so. I'm saying, when the war with Russia is over, they'll have some other problems to deal with. I know it's not trendy to say something other than "slava Ukrainia", but just because some truths aren't nice to hear, doesn't make them untrue.

If the war is ended, the entire country will still be on alert.

There will still be a need to have back up to the army, akin to the New England Minutemen, ready to react at short notice.

[Sweet Pete]

28 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Another concern are the various hi tech hand held missile launchers that have been supplied. If bad actors get hold of a few and smuggle them out of the country they could cause havoc, nearby an airport for example. Not sure if some of them can be disabled or traced remotely. 

There have already been accusations from foreign volunteers of military hardware being stolen and sold by Ukrainians.

12 minutes ago, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

If the war is ended, the entire country will still be on alert.

There will still be a need to have back up to the army, akin to the New England Minutemen, ready to react at short notice.

Absolutely they'll need to have a standing armed forces and a large reserve, but how do they go around and disarm all those private individuals who aren't actively in the armed forces or reserve? That's an awful lot of small and large military kit in private hands.

Additionally, how many times have we seen smaller conflicts, continuation wars and civil wars occur off the back of large wars? Maybe need a foreign peacekeeping force to police Ukraine after the war with Russia is concluded to try and stop a load of small rival armed groups taking each other on.

[Newbornbairn]

1 hour ago, Sweet Pete said:

There have already been accusations from foreign volunteers of military hardware being stolen and sold by Ukrainians.

Mainly traced back to Russian troll accounts it seems. Not that they've got an agenda. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

A good laugh when the Albanian mafia are stoating about with a couple of Himars and some Ander Breveik clone gets stocked up with anti tank missiles in a couple of years.

[Sweet Pete]

1 hour ago, Newbornbairn said:

Mainly traced back to Russian troll accounts it seems. Not that they've got an agenda. 

Don't know about that. I've seen several pro Ukraine independent journalists interview foreign legion fighters who've made the claim that corruption is an ongoing issue for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Like I said before, it may not be fashionable to question Ukraine, but truth and reality are important.

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, Sweet Pete said:

Weird take. I'm not suggesting that Ukraine shouldn't have defended itself against invasion, nor am I suggesting it shouldn't still continue to do so. I'm saying, when the war with Russia is over, they'll have some other problems to deal with. I know it's not trendy to say something other than "slava Ukrainia", but just because some truths aren't nice to hear, doesn't make them untrue.

Do tell how sideways it went post WW2 across Europe and Northern Africa. Seriously, there were sub machine guns lying all over Britain, France, the Low Lands, Italy, Germany, Russia and the whole of Eastern Europe and a good bit of Northern Africa. There were Panzerfausts, bazookas, recoiless rifles, tanks, machine guns, rifles, grenades, pistols, etc, but the mess you predict here didn’t happen there.

[TxRover]

5 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Don't know about that. I've seen several pro Ukraine independent journalists interview foreign legion fighters who've made the claim that corruption is an ongoing issue for the armed forces of Ukraine.

Like I said before, it may not be fashionable to question Ukraine, but truth and reality are important.

Really, and that compares to the Russians who sold their tank for vodka? Corruption and resale of assets has been a military problem in all militaries, but more prevalent in some areas than others…the clepto-maniacal former Soviet sphere being a primary areas. The problem of “advanced” weapons getting sold off to the black market has occurred for centuries, the question is what use are these weapons in the terrorist or civilian sphere? There have been SA-7’s and Stingers in circulation with terrorists for decades, and so far we have one clearly successful attack (Rwandan FA-50) and several known failures. It’s simply not easy to use a MANPADS system to down an aircraft. You have to know about aircraft performance, weather, missile performance, etc…it’s not about pointing at a plane and squeezing a trigger.

On the portable antitank weapons, they aren’t very ”good” point weapons in a busy environment, as we see from the ever popular RPG comedy videos. The more advanced, “guided” weapons are generally too large for the terrorist environment, and have rather finicky handling and care requirements. Their guidance of those is designed to work in a battlefield environment and isn’t easily adaptable to the terrorist job requirements…things like a seeker designed to find and explode over a tank might prefer a bus or a truck over the Presidential car.

[Sweet Pete]

35 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Do tell how sideways it went post WW2 across Europe and Northern Africa. Seriously, there were sub machine guns lying all over Britain, France, the Low Lands, Italy, Germany, Russia and the whole of Eastern Europe and a good bit of Northern Africa. There were Panzerfausts, bazookas, recoiless rifles, tanks, machine guns, rifles, grenades, pistols, etc, but the mess you predict here didn’t happen there.

You're telling me there were no conflicts that occurred in the aftermath of ww2? Or that used ww2 hardware? That's a laughably stupid take.

23 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Really, and that compares to the Russians who sold their tank for vodka? Corruption and resale of assets has been a military problem in all militaries, but more prevalent in some areas than others…the clepto-maniacal former Soviet sphere being a primary areas. The problem of “advanced” weapons getting sold off to the black market has occurred for centuries, the question is what use are these weapons in the terrorist or civilian sphere? There have been SA-7’s and Stingers in circulation with terrorists for decades, and so far we have one clearly successful attack (Rwandan FA-50) and several known failures. It’s simply not easy to use a MANPADS system to down an aircraft. You have to know about aircraft performance, weather, missile performance, etc…it’s not about pointing at a plane and squeezing a trigger.

On the portable antitank weapons, they aren’t very ”good” point weapons in a busy environment, as we see from the ever popular RPG comedy videos. The more advanced, “guided” weapons are generally too large for the terrorist environment, and have rather finicky handling and care requirements. Their guidance of those is designed to work in a battlefield environment and isn’t easily adaptable to the terrorist job requirements…things like a seeker designed to find and explode over a tank might prefer a bus or a truck over the Presidential car.

I didn't compare the Ukrainians to anyone, least of all Russia, so you can stop getting so butt hurt and defensive. Your bizarre posts here are exactly the kind of thing I mentioned previously; since last February it's like you're not allowed to question any decisions that Ukraine makes without some blue and yellow stan who'd almost certainly never have been able to find Ukraine on a map before last February getting their knickers in a twist. 

My point about the proliferation of dangerous arms and munitions and my disquiet about how to control them post war is a valid point. It is not, however, a criticism of the internet's favourite man, Zelenskyy, so there's no need for you to start clutching your pearls.

[TxRover]

6 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

You're telling me there were no conflicts that occurred in the aftermath of ww2? Or that used ww2 hardware? That's a laughably stupid take.

I didn't compare the Ukrainians to anyone, least of all Russia, so you can stop getting so butt hurt and defensive. Your bizarre posts here are exactly the kind of thing I mentioned previously; since last February it's like you're not allowed to question any decisions that Ukraine makes without some blue and yellow stan who'd almost certainly never have been able to find Ukraine on a map before last February getting their knickers in a twist. 

My point about the proliferation of dangerous arms and munitions and my disquiet about how to control them post war is a valid point. It is not, however, a criticism of the internet's favourite man, Zelenskyy, so there's no need for you to start clutching your pearls.

1) No, I’m saying that all was handled just fine post WW2, I see no indication this is any different.

2) No, you talked about corruption and Ukraine, a favorite tactic of Russian bot account and Russian apologists. I simply pointed out there is (more) corruption elsewhere too.

3) I find it bizarre you identify me as a bizarre poster, ceaselessly defending Ukraine, since my posts have more generally been on weapons systems, tactics and strategy. I don’t think I’ve once defended Ukraine as anything other than a victim of Russian aggression, but hay hoo, whatever.

4) Your point was addressed as previously handled, so there’s no indication this is an outlier. I don’t think I’ve actually ever typed that name in a single post, so nice try, my pearls are just fine.

5) You have simply made it clear, to anyone who had a doubt, your allegiance.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, TxRover said:

5) You have simply made it clear, to anyone who had a doubt, your allegiance.

This is an utter bollocks take, unless you're pointing out that he's always argued on the side of the Ukrainian people and against the Russian invasion.

Edited February 26, 2023 by welshbairn

[Sweet Pete]

3 minutes ago, TxRover said:

1) No, I’m saying that all was handled just fine post WW2, I see no indication this is any different.

2) No, you talked about corruption and Ukraine, a favorite tactic of Russian bot account and Russian apologists. I simply pointed out there is (more) corruption elsewhere too.

3) I find it bizarre you identify me as a bizarre poster, ceaselessly defending Ukraine, since my posts have more generally been on weapons systems, tactics and strategy. I don’t think I’ve once defended Ukraine as anything other than a victim of Russian aggression, but hay hoo, whatever.

4) Your point was addressed as previously handled, so there’s no indication this is an outlier. I don’t think I’ve actually ever typed that name in a single post, so nice try, my pearls are just fine.

5) You have simply made it clear, to anyone who had a doubt, your allegiance.

Your point 5 is exactly what I mean; I raised a question that I was genuinely curious about and now apparently I need to have an "allegiance" about a foreign war thousands of miles away. Get a grip of yourself. Not everyone who asks a question rather than makes simply unquestioning pro Ukraine posts is a "Russian bot" or of Russian allegiance.

[Sweet Pete]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

This is an utter bollocks take, unless you're pointing out that he's always argued on the side of the Ukrainian people and against the Russian invasion.

Absolutely correct. I've been unequivocal throughout this thread thar the Russian invasion is a disgrace. But because I mentioned the absolutely true fact that Ukraine has a corruption problem and massive amounts of weapons floating around, I'm now a Russian bot/troll.

His other points are similarly stupid.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Absolutely correct. I've been unequivocal throughout this thread thar the Russian invasion is a disgrace. But because I mentioned the absolutely true fact that Ukraine has a corruption problem and massive amounts of weapons floating around, I'm now a Russian bot/troll.

His other points are similarly stupid.

Swampy's gotta swamp.. 

[Sweet Pete]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Swampy's gotta swamp.. 

Is that swampy? He was a weirdo.

[TxRover]

2 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Absolutely correct. I've been unequivocal throughout this thread thar the Russian invasion is a disgrace. But because I mentioned the absolutely true fact that Ukraine has a corruption problem and massive amounts of weapons floating around, I'm now a Russian bot/troll.

His other points are similarly stupid.

It is unfortunately exactly in live with other accounts all over social media that start out establishing a baseline and then gaslight happily into the stratosphere. I got carried away, in the same manner I feel you did, by what I felt was an accusation of being a Ukrainian puppet.

Lets reset:

1) Corruption is an issue throughout the ex-Soviet sphere

2) Weapons have been left lying for centuries after wars, and things have worked out.

3) Advanced weapons need advanced care and lots of training for proper and effective use.

4) There will need to be some work to reduced the loose weapon from this conflict.

5) The bots on P&B are Chinese, and post random University crap at night.

 

Fair enough?

[TxRover]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Swampy's gotta swamp.. 

 

2 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Is that swampy? He was a weirdo.

Not sure whom you are referring to, but that’s your right. I’m not.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

8 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

, I'm now a Russian bot/troll.

Always had my suspicions tbh.

[Sweet Pete]

I can't reply until my kremlin handlers tell me what to say.