10 years since old rangers admin

[hearthammer]

3 minutes ago, AJF said:

 

I'll give you my view on it, but I know already it's not something that will resonate with or appease other fans or do anything to quell any criticism, for that matter. But, I'll give my opinion anyway.

I'm not a denier of liquidation, nor am I ignorant to the circumstances that led to it. Rangers willingly took part in a Tax Avoidance scheme exploiting a loophole in tax legislation and they were later informed that said loophole was never intended to allow that tax advantage and that HMRC believed it would ultimately be taxable. Yet, they persisted with it and over a decade later it was, not surprisingly, found to be taxable (despite an initial victory for Rangers at tribunal).

As you mentioned Celtic, the biggest mistake (not the only one) Rangers made was to operate an Employer led EBT scheme, meaning any future liability would land with the club, rather than sign players up to contractor loan schemes as individuals, which is what Celtic players did. Ultimately this allowed Celtic plausible deniability and as a result, the tax liability is now beginning to land with the players they paid via these contractor loan schemes.

I can't claim that if the roles were reversed I'd view things any differently from how you do now in regards to Rangers.

So, I'm not saying liquidation never happened and I'm not saying others fans are wrong to believe we are a different club or don't have a right to be angry. But (here's where people will disagree), I sit in the same seat in the same stadium as I did prior to 2012. I support a team that wears the same badge, plays in the same colours and I go to football matches with the same people that I attended with prior to 2012. So, in my view, I support the same club.

 

So do Gretna fans, but they accept, and more importantly know, that they're supporting a "phoenix" club.  Without fail, the "whataboutery" reference to the practices across the city are included within your defence.  It's a standard mechanism, unfortunately, when these issues are aired.

The main thing i have taken from your response, for which i thank you, is that you know the truth of the situation, but cannot bring yourself to be the person that openly admits it - as highlighted at the end.

[AJF]

1 minute ago, hearthammer said:

Without fail, the "whataboutery" reference to the practices across the city are included within your defence.  It's a standard mechanism, unfortunately, when these issues are aired.

I think that's a bit unfair considering you were the one that specifically asked me about Celtic in terms of if the shoe was on the other foot. I explained the differences between the two and even went on to say I couldn't say I'd view things differently if the roles were reversed.

[hearthammer]

6 minutes ago, AJF said:

I think that's a bit unfair considering you were the one that specifically asked me about Celtic in terms of if the shoe was on the other foot. I explained the differences between the two and even went on to say I couldn't say I'd view things differently if the roles were reversed.

Aye, but you inferred they had practices that fell outside the normal PAYE regulations TOO, thereby bringing them over to the "naughty side" along with l'equipe nouveau.  So they're as bad as us - type of response.

You're better than that my friend.

[AJF]

3 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

Aye, but you inferred they had practices that fell outside the normal PAYE regulations TOO, thereby bringing them over to the "naughty side" along with l'equipe nouveau.  So they're as bad as us - type of response.

You're better than that my friend.

That's not quite was I was aiming for. Celtic were smart enough to have their players receive disguised remuneration through contractor loans. I was being critical of Rangers not following the same suit, hence why I branded it a big mistake.

[Dundee Hibernian]

38 minutes ago, AJF said:

I'm not a denier of liquidation ...........................................................................

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So, I'm not saying liquidation never happened and I'm not saying others fans are wrong to believe we are a different club or don't have a right to be angry. But (here's where people will disagree), I sit in the same seat in the same stadium as I did prior to 2012. I support a team that wears the same badge, plays in the same colours and I go to football matches with the same people that I attended with prior to 2012. So, in my view, I support the same club.

I'm afraid you are a denier, as you've just denied the club was liquidated. All these 'same' things you've quoted are only really the same because the football authorities, through fear, and the media, suddenly changed tune at some point, aided by Charles Green.

25 minutes ago, IDoNotKnowThisOne said:

Same bigoted shit as well, AJF. You've left that out, for some reason. 

I honestly think the younger element in the Ibrox club's support is now much worse.

19 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

So do Gretna fans, but they accept, and more importantly know, that they're supporting a "phoenix" club.  Without fail, the "whataboutery" reference to the practices across the city are included within your defence.  It's a standard mechanism, unfortunately, when these issues are aired.

The main thing i have taken from your response, for which i thank you, is that you know the truth of the situation, but cannot bring yourself to be the person that openly admits it - as highlighted at the end.

This is a good summation.

[craigkillie]

There are lots of very weird P&B posters who literally only appear when this topic is being discussed. Get another hobby lads, it's been 10 years.

[Squonk]

2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

There are lots of very weird P&B posters who literally only appear when this topic is being discussed. Get another hobby lads, it's been 10 years.

So it's been ten years. So what? Hillsborough and Lance Armstrong's cheating are just two examples of injustices in sport that took years to resolve. Should everyone just give up seeking justice once an arbitrary period of time has elapsed?

A few years back, my club came perilously close to going into liquidation and there isn't a shadow of a doubt that such a liquidation would have officially resulted in the end of the club and its history, even although a new club would inevitably have risen from the ashes, playing in the same colours, in front of the same supporters, likely in the same stadium.

The rules and regulations of the football authorities (and indeed the laws of the land concerning insolvency) aren't selective in their application; or more accurately, they're supposed to be applied equally to all clubs. One club was clearly more equal than others, and its b*****d offspring also has its very own rule book, including a disciplinary regime that is unique to it and it alone, as per the terms of the five way agreement.

If you, as a moderator, think that lots of posters are weird simply because they still, ten years later, view this unresolved festering sore as the biggest scandal in Scottish football history, then perhaps you're the one who should consider getting another hobby.   

[Dundee Hibernian]

3 hours ago, craigkillie said:

There are lots of very weird P&B posters who literally only appear when this topic is being discussed. Get another hobby lads, it's been 10 years.

Unfair: I know of fans who gave up on the game in Scotland when they discovered they had been watching a financially doped competition, and others who gradually stopped watching as it became clear nothing was really changing in the way the game was run. Most of these are more senior types, who had invested a lot of their time and money in the game. 

Why do you think this topic shouldn't be discussed by any fan who wishes to contribute? What are your thoughts, for the implication of your post seems to be we should follow the media line?

[Monkey Tennis]

25 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Unfair: I know of fans who gave up on the game in Scotland when they discovered they had been watching a financially doped competition, and others who gradually stopped watching as it became clear nothing was really changing in the way the game was run. Most of these are more senior types, who had invested a lot of their time and money in the game. 

Why do you think this topic shouldn't be discussed by any fan who wishes to contribute? What are your thoughts, for the implication of your post seems to be we should follow the media line?

Craigkillie is generally a fine poster but really can be guilty of OF apologism on occasion.  This is clearly one such.

[craigkillie]

I'm not talking about normal P&B posters discussing the issue here, I'm talking about folk like "hearthammer" who you literally only see on this single topic.

[Monkey Tennis]

11 hours ago, AJF said:

That's not quite was I was aiming for. Celtic were smart enough to have their players receive disguised remuneration through contractor loans. I was being critical of Rangers not following the same suit, hence why I branded it a big mistake.

Is this a reference to that film scheme some Celtic players bought into as a means of not contributing their due amount to wider society?  You wish Rangers had followed suit?  That doesn't sound too classy.

Did that operate on a comparable scale to Rangers' EBT caper anyway? I'd thought it was a relatively tiny affair.  Still morally despicable of course.

 

[bennett]

1 hour ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Unfair: I know of fans who gave up on the game in Scotland when they discovered they had been watching a financially doped competition, and others who gradually stopped watching as it became clear nothing was really changing in the way the game was run. Most of these are more senior types, who had invested a lot of their time and money in the game. 

Why do you think this topic shouldn't be discussed by any fan who wishes to contribute? What are your thoughts, for the implication of your post seems to be we should follow the media line?

 

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I'm not talking about normal P&B posters discussing the issue here, I'm talking about folk like "hearthammer" who you literally only see on this single topic.

The fact that you only see him in here apparently, doesn't mean he's never elsewhere.

He's got thousands of posts all over the site, demonstrating a particular fondness for a Music Chinese Whisper.

[SlipperyP]

6 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I'm not talking about normal P&B posters discussing the issue here, I'm talking about folk like "hearthammer" who you literally only see on this single topic.

You've got to take this up with @Sergeant Wilson i'm sure the two of them. Love/loved following each other around the forum looking for a fight.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 hours ago, AJF said:

I'm not saying liquidation never happened and I'm not saying others fans are wrong to believe we are a different club or don't have a right to be angry. But (here's where people will disagree), I sit in the same seat in the same stadium as I did prior to 2012. I support a team that wears the same badge, plays in the same colours and I go to football matches with the same people that I attended with prior to 2012. So, in my view, I support the same club.

 

This is almost acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

The question of continuation is a bit of a guddle.  The old club did effectively die, but it strikes me as a bit daft to pretend the rebirth is utterly unrelated to it, partly because of the reasons you cite.

The Gretna parallel is instructive though and tells us something about the nature of the Rangers fan base that lots of us find distasteful.  Gretna fans could make the same noises about their ground, companions and colours.  However, they wanted the club name tweaked and the badge accordingly altered, because distance was wanted from a shoddy period, even if it did bring unprecedented success.  

Rangers fans seem to me, to almost universally have a very different relationship with their club, to which success, even ancient success, is central.  It's that need to associate with winning, even with a stacked deck, that leaves lots of us viewing the club - in whatever guise - with something approaching contempt.

[Dundee Hibernian]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I'm not talking about normal P&B posters discussing the issue here, I'm talking about folk like "hearthammer" who you literally only see on this single topic.

I tried to explain why this might have been the case, but in @hearthammer you are directing towards the wrong target. Perhaps, if this is the only topic which drives a person to post, it's because they were so shocked and disappointed at an affair which killed football in this nation, for them. No matter whether deluded Sevco fans believe it or otherwise, some turned their back on the game when the level of economic chicanery was revealed, and some fans continue to show less interest in matches involving their club when they play the Ibrox side.

When fixtures were revealed in the past, fans would possibly look out for the derby matches, then, in my case, the dates of Aberdeen encounters closely followed by Celtic and the then Rangers. On Sunday, around 1200 United season ticket holders didn't bother attending the match, and very few cash sales were made. 

Rangers as a home fixture used to be an attraction, now there's repugnance attached to their visit.

[EdinburghBlue]

23 hours ago, stressball said:

I still don’t understand how racking up debt to board members who then convert the debt to shares is “sustainable.”

 

 

It’s not. It’s financial doping. Cheating. 

[hearthammer]

12 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I'm not talking about normal P&B posters discussing the issue here, I'm talking about folk like "hearthammer" who you literally only see on this single topic.

Grand Equipe Trouvee   !!!!!!!!!

Please feel free to venture into the Music forums, or a variety of others where you may or may not have any interest, any time you're not too busy scouring for things to moan at.  I have strong feelings about what went on with the cheating as i knew and worked with some of the people who were dragged into the debacle , purely because of their peripheral employment. 

Apparently, this is a place and site for expressing opinions.

Edited February 25, 2022 by hearthammer

[Mark Connolly]

44 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

Grand Equipe Trouvee   !!!!!!!!!

Please feel free to venture into the Music forums, or a variety of others where you may or may not have any interest, any time you're not too busy scouring for things to moan at.  I have strong feelings about what went on with the cheating as i knew and worked with some of the people who were dragged into the debacle , purely because of their peripheral employment. 

Apparently, this is a place and site for expressing opinions.

^^^ Lost control...

[hearthammer]

1 minute ago, Mark Connolly said:

^^^ Lost control...

Au contraire.  I was politely exchanging posts with @AJF on a friendly basis and he defended his position valiantly, as most of their fans try to so.  AJF at no point had a go at me for being out of control or overstepping the accepted levels of language, etc, used. When a Mod wades in to say "move on" because he objects to criticism of his "ither team", then that's where i perhaps take umbrage.  Others also issued critiques of his attempted intervention.

All good with me mate.  Nae frenzy or whatever you may have been implying.

Cheers