Energy Prices

[strichener]

42 minutes ago, TxRover said:

But, as is noted above, the efficiency of the boiler is heavily influenced by  installation, configuration and maintenance. It’s a huge issue that will snowball over the next couple of decades.

In the UK you would need the boiler to be running under 40% efficiency before it would be anywhere close to the cost of electric heating.

Like with Electric cars there is this idea that we can all jump over to the green side and remove fossil fuel.  Where is all this additional electricity going to come from?

 

[Bairnardo]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

However, an electric radiator is 100% efficient and requires much less maintenance than a wet radiator/boiler system. The net efficiency improvement over a (perfectly functioning) wet radiator is in the 20-40% range. That’s potentially up to halving the cost difference already, maybe more given the state of many systems, without considering the maintenance.. Also, electric radiators can run off solar panels directly.

Having had solar panels for a full year now, I think its safe to state what always felt obvious.... That when you are most in need of heat, you are least likely to be generating anywhere near the solar to run it. 

[TxRover]

22 minutes ago, strichener said:

In the UK you would need the boiler to be running under 40% efficiency before it would be anywhere close to the cost of electric heating.

Like with Electric cars there is this idea that we can all jump over to the green side and remove fossil fuel.  Where is all this additional electricity going to come from?

The point was being discussed with regard to changes in the electrical price tie-in and the idea of carbon pricing. It is becoming abundantly clear that changes in fossil fuel consumption will have to occur going forward.

 

1 minute ago, Bairnardo said:

Having had solar panels for a full year now, I think it’s safe to state what always felt obvious.... That when you are most in need of heat, you are least likely to be generating anywhere near the solar to run it. 

Absolutely, which is why a systemic change will be the eventual result.

Edited August 2, 2023 by TxRover

[lichtgilphead]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

The "up to" qualifier is the important part.  If you use oil or LPG then you know what kWh you get from each litre.

The time you want a heat pump to be most efficient is when it is least efficient.

There is also little point extolling the virtues of a heat pump with RHI when it's no longer available.

£ for £ you are not going to see savings with a heat pump that will give you any chance of covering the installation costs.

My heat pump is least efficient when the heating is off, and it's being used for hot water only. During the time when the heating is on, the ratio averages well over 3.

Here are the figures for Jul '22 to Jun '23

Jul 2.09
Aug 1.97
Sep 2.20
Oct 3.47
Nov 3.55
Dec 3.02
Jan 3.55
Fwb 3.66
Mar 3.19
Apr 3.24
May 2.18
Jun 2.15

Total cost of installation (including upgrading the loft insulation) was ~£12,000. The RHI & my savings on electricity are more than £200/month. At these ballpark figures, I''m in profit after 5 years i.e. in March '24. Money well spent, and tthe house is now warm.

[Shadow Play]

18 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

My heat pump is least efficient when the heating is off, and it's being used for hot water only. During the time when the heating is on, the ratio averages well over 3.

Here are the figures for Jul '22 to Jun '23

Jul 2.09
Aug 1.97
Sep 2.20
Oct 3.47
Nov 3.55
Dec 3.02
Jan 3.55
Fwb 3.66
Mar 3.19
Apr 3.24
May 2.18
Jun 2.15

Total cost of installation (including upgrading the loft insulation) was ~£12,000. The RHI & my savings on electricity are more than £200/month. At these ballpark figures, I''m in profit after 5 years i.e. in March '24. Money well spent, and tthe house is now warm.

Apologies if you have already explained this but did you move from electric storage or electric radiator heating?

[lichtgilphead]

19 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Apologies if you have already explained this but did you move from electric storage or electric radiator heating?

Storage heaters in the living-room, hall & kitchen, panel heaters (set to 14°C to take the chill off)  in the bedrooms and fan heaters in the bathroom & en-suite. We also used a convector heater in the evenings in the living-room.

The house was cold enough that the greyhounds had to wear pyjamas all day through the winter.

As I previously explained, there's no mains gas where I stay, so it's either electric, kero or coal. I'm delighted with my choice of the heat-pump.

[Zetterlund]

If I had to break it down into the different types of heating replaced by the heat pumps I've fitted over the years, it's probably around 75% oil or LPG boilers, 20% electric and 5% mains gas. 

With a customer yesterday who has had the heat pump running for about a month, and efficiency is right on 300%. They were slightly disappointed with this figure given it's a super-insulated new build, until I explained what @lichtgilphead has shown above that when it's mostly heating hot water the efficiency will suffer. I'd expect to see over 350% in that place after a full year.

I do think the obsession with shoehorning them into every UK home is a bit bonkers though. The government can't keep funding it forever and a huge chunk of our housing stock just isn't suitable. 

[strichener]

20 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

My heat pump is least efficient when the heating is off, and it's being used for hot water only. During the time when the heating is on, the ratio averages well over 3.

Here are the figures for Jul '22 to Jun '23

Jul 2.09
Aug 1.97
Sep 2.20
Oct 3.47
Nov 3.55
Dec 3.02
Jan 3.55
Fwb 3.66
Mar 3.19
Apr 3.24
May 2.18
Jun 2.15

Total cost of installation (including upgrading the loft insulation) was ~£12,000. The RHI & my savings on electricity are more than £200/month. At these ballpark figures, I''m in profit after 5 years i.e. in March '24. Money well spent, and tthe house is now warm.

LPG 2 year pricing 47ppl for approx 7 kWh (actually slightly above this).  Condensing boiler at 93% efficiency works out at £0.0742 per kWh.  Even at it's most efficient in February (with the price cap) you were still paying £0.0928 per kWh.  If the government hadn't capped prices you would have been paying approx £0.20 per kWh.

In your case you have RHI to offset that, this is no longer available so isn't valid when looking at the economics of a new installation.

I am also interested in how you get hot water.  Do you have supplementary heating for this to take the water temperature to 60 degc?

Edited August 3, 2023 by strichener

[Paxo]

1 hour ago, Zetterlund said:

If I had to break it down into the different types of heating replaced by the heat pumps I've fitted over the years, it's probably around 75% oil or LPG boilers, 20% electric and 5% mains gas. 

With a customer yesterday who has had the heat pump running for about a month, and efficiency is right on 300%. They were slightly disappointed with this figure given it's a super-insulated new build, until I explained what @lichtgilphead has shown above that when it's mostly heating hot water the efficiency will suffer. I'd expect to see over 350% in that place after a full year.

I do think the obsession with shoehorning them into every UK home is a bit bonkers though. The government can't keep funding it forever and a huge chunk of our housing stock just isn't suitable. 

But the same logic applies to a gas boiler, no? Ie. If it's a new build to current fabric standards, a gas boiler rarely does any heating and is better value for domestic hot water and therefore is cheaper to install and run than an air source heat pump (with no RHI subsidy).

Don't even get me started on exhaust air heat pumps...

[Zetterlund]

19 minutes ago, Paxo said:

But the same logic applies to a gas boiler, no? Ie. If it's a new build to current fabric standards, a gas boiler rarely does any heating and is better value for domestic hot water and therefore is cheaper to install and run than an air source heat pump (with no RHI subsidy).

Don't even get me started on exhaust air heat pumps...

Aye, there's no running costs argument for heat pumps over mains gas. I don't know why so much of the marketing for heat pumps is about lowering bills when most people are on gas. It's a hard sell getting folk to switch just to be green or 'do the right thing', but as I said 95% of customers are switching from other energy sources where the economics make sense.

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, strichener said:

1) LPG 2 year pricing 47ppl for approx 7 kWh (actually slightly above this).  Condensing boiler at 93% efficiency works out at £0.0742 per kWh.  Even at it's most efficient in February (with the price cap) you were still paying £0.0928 per kWh.  2) If the government hadn't capped prices you would have been paying approx £0.20 per kWh.

3) In your case you have RHI to offset that, this is no longer available so isn't valid when looking at the economics of a new installation.

4) I am also interested in how you get hot water.  Do you have supplementary heating for this to take the water temperature to 60 degc?

1) If your figures are correct, why does no-one around here appear to be rushing to install LPG? Personally, I was happy to choose a greener alternative (and before you go off on one, I have a green electricity supplier)

2) If your auntie had balls she would be your uncle. In addition, given that I installed my heat pump in March 2019, who was predicting the massive rise in electricity costs at that time?

3) I've set out my own experience here. I'm not considering putting in another heat pump, so why should I attempt to provide current figures? Every house is different, and folk can do their own sums for their own houses. The reason I gave actual real-life ballpark figures was to debunk your claims that heat-pump savings would not cover installation costs and that heat-pumps were less efficient when you needed them most. However, from posts above, I believe that my ~£8400 RHI payment has been replaced by a £5000 grant. If this is correct, my initial cost would have been ~£7000 instead of ~£12000, and savings of £100/month on direct debts would total over £7000 in 6 years (this figure takes no account of the electricity price increase, which has obviously already increased my monthly saving)

4) The heat pump can either heat the radiators, or can heat the water in the DHW system. It can't do both at the same time. Normally, the water is maintained at 50°C, which is easily hot enough for showering , shaving etc. This was the temperature setting recommended by the installer. However, the legionella programme kicks roughly every 2 weeks , and heats the DHW system  to (I think) 65°C to kill any legionella present in the system. The figures I have provided (both above & previously) include the electricity used for thos automatically scheduled event (this may partly explain why the system appears less efficient when the central heating isn't needed.)

[RH33]

On 02/08/2023 at 23:01, lichtgilphead said:

My heat pump is least efficient when the heating is off, and it's being used for hot water only. During the time when the heating is on, the ratio averages well over 3.

Here are the figures for Jul '22 to Jun '23

Jul 2.09
Aug 1.97
Sep 2.20
Oct 3.47
Nov 3.55
Dec 3.02
Jan 3.55
Fwb 3.66
Mar 3.19
Apr 3.24
May 2.18
Jun 2.15

Total cost of installation (including upgrading the loft insulation) was ~£12,000. The RHI & my savings on electricity are more than £200/month. At these ballpark figures, I''m in profit after 5 years i.e. in March '24. Money well spent, and tthe house is now warm.

How do you work those figures out? Or does the display do it for you.

I was looking at the Scottish government loans as had be in a year for grant and ASHP was one with most funding. One few houses where the owner  hadn't linked into the gas supply and also had ripped out the storage heaters. Apart from one and discovered it wasn't wired in.

When I had company out to quote they told me I qualified for Eco4 funding so I got Solars, insulation and ASHP for nowt. No idea the savings as I moved in last August and had it done in the December. The weeks Upto that were freezing so hate to think how much the convection plug ins I had were costing.

Probably about £20k of work? 

Plus I paid to have new windows in as there would have been zero point with the 40 yr old drafty windows.

 

[lichtgilphead]

4 hours ago, RH33 said:

How do you work those figures out? Or does the display do it for you.

When the RHI initiative was originally available, some types of system required the owner to provide regular efficiency figures to continue to receive the payment. My system doesn't require me to do this, but the RHI website suggests that you keep your own records to see whether your system is functioning efficiently.

By pressing the furthest right button on my control panel a couple of times, I can access a menu that shows me the last 2 months of energy used and another menu that shows the last 2 months of energy delivered. I can also get yearly figures. 

The energy used & energy delivered figures can be further broken down into energy used/delivered for hot water & heating.

I input these figures into a spreadsheet, and work out the efficiency ratio by dividing the energy delivered by the energy used.

If you have a Mitsibushi system, I could give you detailed instructions if you are interested.

[RH33]

No I have a different system, my pals husband a gas heating engineer and was asking about figures, I'll have a look tomorrow.

[Zetterlund]

13 minutes ago, RH33 said:

No I have a different system, my pals husband a gas heating engineer and was asking about figures, I'll have a look tomorrow.

Your Daikin system also gives you this info. If you look at energy metering in the Information menu it gives electricity used and produced heat, and can also be broken down into heating & hot water (use the right dial to flick between heating/hot water/total).

[RH33]

Yeah, I was just downstairs and found the bar graphs!

[bobbykdy]

First bill came through after price drop, big drop in the price of gas per unit, electric not so much. Hopefully a sign of things to come though and drops again in October.

[CityDave94]

Checked my e-mails as I do first thing and was shocked to discover an appointment had been made without my consent to install a smart meter. I went straight into my account and cancelled it.

Why do they (Scottish Gas) keep insisting in their 'friendly' e-mails that reading the meter is a big hastle, its not. Its one of the most important things you do in maintaining the house and your own budget. It takes a couple of minutes to do and less than five minutes to go online and add the numbers to your account once a month.

Maybe they are doing this hoping that people miss e-mails like this or forget about it and they either get the engineer turning up on their doorstep or a second e-mail the day before within the 24hrs and they the customer cancels, in which the company charges a cancellation fee of £30 if the appointment is cancelled within 24hrs of the time the engineer is to turn up.

I'm now thinking that I and other customers of Scottish Gas who don't mind taking 5-10 minutes out of our TV or online time a month to do a reading and send it and don't want a smart meter in their home are going to be continually harrassed with 'friendly' e-mails or letters by this company until they give in.

Problem here is it's a mandate set out by the government to reduce carbon emissions for Britain in their words to adopt a 'smart grid'. Will it be manditory for every house in the UK eventually? This regardless of your own efforts to reduce your own emissions in your home and keep your own spending on energy down and in check. Its keeping the cost down bit and staying in control of my own limited budget is the reason I do not trust smart meters since they take that control away. At a time when energy companies are ripping the piss and getting away with it, why would I trust them?

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by approximately dave

[scottsdad]

OK, question for those with heat pumps. 

My mum's cousin lives in a council house in a village near Falkirk. It has no gas, and she's had 10 years of the Thermaflow wet electric system which is useless. Expensive to run, and doesn't heat the house or water very well. 

The council relented to villager's demands, and have offered her (and the other residents) three options.

• Stick with Thermaflow (not gonna happen)
• Get gas installed next year when they get a gas pipeline connected
• Get an air source heat pump and solar panels installed

She doesn't know which way to go here. The house itself is well insulated (the council installed triple glazed windows and doors, external insulation and a new roof in recent years), an end-terrace place. 

So...genuine question - if faced with the choice of gas or heat pump/solar panels, which is best in terms of thermal comfort and cost?

Cheers,

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, approximately dave said:

Checked my e-mails as I do first thing and was shocked to discover an appointment had been made without my consent to install a smart meter. I went straight into my account and cancelled it.

Why do they (Scottish Gas) keep insisting in their 'friendly' e-mails that reading the meter is a big hastle, its not. Its one of the most important things you do in maintaining the house and your own budget. It takes a couple of minutes to do and less than five minutes to go online and add the numbers to your account once a month.

While you later identify the government mandate as the real motivation for the energy provider to push this, you're also assuming that all meters are easy to access for a reading. My gas meter is helpfully located inside a panelled box which makes it necessary to open the air vent every time and stick a phone camera in to take a photo of the reading. The electricity meter and key (prepayment since before moving in) is literally over 7 feet off the ground and an obvious safety hazard if it was an elderly or smaller person owning the home instead.

Having completed a year on readings I'm now finally in the process of getting shot of Scottish Power - the biggest bunch of charlatans under the sun - and would be happy to get a smart meter to remove prepayment. Problem is that the electricity meter is located in such a stupid and enclosed space that they might refuse to work on it, as SP claimed last time.