Energy Prices

[Bairnardo]

7 minutes ago, Zetterlund said:

You do get high temperature heat pumps which are intended as a straight swap for a boiler with existing pipework etc. More expensive, but a solution for some.

My own heat pump is running on the old pipework but I did replace all radiators. Not ideal and it could be more efficient, but someone isn't keen on me tearing up all the floors...

I know that generally single radiators usually get upgraded to double but mines are all double already so I kinda hoped they might be OK already. Plus decent lift and cavity wall insulation.... 

[Zetterlund]

13 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

I know that generally single radiators usually get upgraded to double but mines are all double already so I kinda hoped they might be OK already. Plus decent lift and cavity wall insulation.... 

The installer/surveyor will need to go room to room and make sure it all complies with the MCS conditions to qualify for grants.

This is where some cowboys cut corners, basically just sell the heat pump before even looking, fudge the numbers to make it comply, then act surprised when it doesn't work properly.

[superbigal]

Be careful to put your readings in today as the variable rates are cut significantly.  

No one of course would advise entering your readings low by mistake. if your eyes are terrible, or you are numerate dyslexic.

You would not want to be paying more units at a lower price to these blood sucking companies.

[Archie McSquackle]

I got an email from my supplier advising me their rates are coming down as of today as the cap is reducing. Strangely my work colleagues don't seem to have received similar advice from their suppliers.

My supplier is also reducing their rate to 5% below the cap (although a cheeky wee rise in the standing charge offsets that). Are we getting back to the days of shopping around?

[lichtgilphead]

4 hours ago, Zetterlund said:

Aye if you can benefit from a lower rate that'll help, although the large majority of energy use will be for space heating.

Over 300% efficiency is definitely possible, with anything from 250 to 350 being the normal range in my experience. It's all about keeping the flow temperature low which is why bigger radiators are needed, and also why the heating pipework often needs replaced to allow higher flow rates.

Those switching from mains gas generally don't do it to lower running costs, unless they benefit from solar too. It's usually a desire to get away from fossil fuels, so if their boiler needs replaced it's a viable option while the government are throwing money at you to fit them.

Air to air heat pumps are much more efficient than air to water at up to 500%, but you don't currently get the same funding options for them.

Yeah, when the heating is needed, I get over 300%. Using the system for hot water (DHW) only (like last month) doesn't seem as efficient - see the ratio column below

[Zetterlund]

25 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yeah, when the heating is needed, I get over 300%. Using the system for hot water (DHW) only (like last month) doesn't seem as efficient - see the ratio column below

Aye, makes sense as heating the cylinder will have the heat pump running at its max flow temperature.

I make that 324% overall which is very decent.

[CityDave94]

4 hours ago, superbigal said:

Be careful to put your readings in today as the variable rates are cut significantly.  

No one of course would advise entering your readings low by mistake. if your eyes are terrible, or you are numerate dyslexic.

You would not want to be paying more units at a lower price to these blood sucking companies.

UK heatwave and global warming.

[RH33]

9 hours ago, Zetterlund said:

Let me guess... fitted to an existing hot water tank?

No, wasnt wired in properly.

[TxRover]

17 hours ago, Zetterlund said:

Air to air heat pumps are much more efficient than air to water at up to 500%, but you don't currently get the same funding options for them.

Just as a matter of interest, is there any movement to using or requiring dry heat in new builds? Of course, with dry heat, the heat pump can, in addition to being more efficient, also provide air conditioning (cooling).

[Zetterlund]

6 hours ago, TxRover said:

Just as a matter of interest, is there any movement to using or requiring dry heat in new builds? Of course, with dry heat, the heat pump can, in addition to being more efficient, also provide air conditioning (cooling).

It's really not a thing here at all. I've never fitted this type of heating in a new build, apart from a few in single rooms in addition to the wet central heating.

One of the issues is limitations in domestic hot water heating. At the moment you can add a hot water module to a multi-split air conditioning system, but only up to around 90 litres when a standard cylinder is 300.

If I were to build a new house myself I'd have 'dry heat' central heating/cooling, and unless there are advances in the water heating options, a separate small 4kW heat pump assisted by solar for that.

Pumping water around your house for heat seems a bit of an antiquated solution now, is much less efficient, and involves a lot more maintenance. Probably 95% of heat pump callouts are water-related - pumps, filters, flow switches, pipe stats etc etc.

[RH33]

As an aside, should I have similar to boiler break down cover for ashp? I never had boiler cover as friend is gas engineer. No idea who I'll get service the pump.

 

[Zetterlund]

20 minutes ago, RH33 said:

As an aside, should I have similar to boiler break down cover for ashp? I never had boiler cover as friend is gas engineer. No idea who I'll get service the pump.

 

Do the installers not also do servicing & aftercare? 

Some manufacturers offer comprehensive cover packages, a good idea once it's out of warranty,as parts can be very expensive.

[RH33]

1 hour ago, Zetterlund said:

Do the installers not also do servicing & aftercare? 

Some manufacturers offer comprehensive cover packages, a good idea once it's out of warranty,as parts can be very expensive.

It was sub contracted out to guys who came down from Perth.

I'll look into what Dikan offers. Cheers.

[TxRover]

5 hours ago, Zetterlund said:

It's really not a thing here at all. I've never fitted this type of heating in a new build, apart from a few in single rooms in addition to the wet central heating.

One of the issues is limitations in domestic hot water heating. At the moment you can add a hot water module to a multi-split air conditioning system, but only up to around 90 litres when a standard cylinder is 300.

If I were to build a new house myself I'd have 'dry heat' central heating/cooling, and unless there are advances in the water heating options, a separate small 4kW heat pump assisted by solar for that.

Pumping water around your house for heat seems a bit of an antiquated solution now, is much less efficient, and involves a lot more maintenance. Probably 95% of heat pump callouts are water-related - pumps, filters, flow switches, pipe stats etc etc.

I understand the inertia on retaining wet heat, and it is a more even solution for heat and avoids the problem with where do you place the air trunks (in the hotter climes it’s generally ceiling mounted vents, in cooler it’s floor mounted by windows). Not sure I understand the water heating concern, as the normal process here is either a stand-alone water heater (gas or electric, 30-50 gallon…some installations use multiple) or a tankless heater (same).

As for more expensive, I’m not so sure about that overall. While you have the issues you list, we get replacing the entire system roughly every 20 years (residential climate control heat pump) or 25-30 (residential A/C unit and separate furnace plus the water heater (tanked unit) every 6-12 years (unless you use till failure…which can be messy).

Perhaps the maintenance or wear is different in your use, but it’s highly recommended at least a yearly service visit to check performance and head off any developing issues. About one of every two visits with a very trustworthy family firm would print some minor issue that headed off worse down the road (start capacitor weakening, indications of a developing electrical issue in wires, trunk leaks, etc.). Do you know the expected lifespan of an air source heat pump in a typical UK application?

[Zetterlund]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

I understand the inertia on retaining wet heat, and it is a more even solution for heat and avoids the problem with where do you place the air trunks (in the hotter climes it’s generally ceiling mounted vents, in cooler it’s floor mounted by windows). Not sure I understand the water heating concern, as the normal process here is either a stand-alone water heater (gas or electric, 30-50 gallon…some installations use multiple) or a tankless heater (same).

As for more expensive, I’m not so sure about that overall. While you have the issues you list, we get replacing the entire system roughly every 20 years (residential climate control heat pump) or 25-30 (residential A/C unit and separate furnace plus the water heater (tanked unit) every 6-12 years (unless you use till failure…which can be messy).

Perhaps the maintenance or wear is different in your use, but it’s highly recommended at least a yearly service visit to check performance and head off any developing issues. About one of every two visits with a very trustworthy family firm would print some minor issue that headed off worse down the road (start capacitor weakening, indications of a developing electrical issue in wires, trunk leaks, etc.). Do you know the expected lifespan of an air source heat pump in a typical UK application?

Yeah, building designs would need to take into account the spaces required for different types of heating systems, although many new builds now have mechanical ventilation so not dissimilar to ducted air heating. 99% of the systems I fit are ductless though.

Direct electric water heating isn't really an option now with energy prices as they are. Most houses on gas or oil will heat on demand directly through the boiler, but heat pumps don't have the power for this so a storage tank is required.

Homeowners *should* get their heating systems serviced every year, and all of the customers I fit heat pumps for sign up for this too for the reasons you state. Manufacturers will tell you they have a lifespan of around 15 years, which is probably fair given that I've been fitting them for 15 years now and some of the first ones are still going while other have been replaced. 

I'm about to swap out a unit I fitted 13 years ago for a new one in a couple of weeks. It could be repaired, but the repair bill would have been about £2500 while a complete replacement is £4600. So a bit like with a car, as they get older you have a decision to make when a big bill comes along.

 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Zetterlund said:

Yeah, building designs would need to take into account the spaces required for different types of heating systems, although many new builds now have mechanical ventilation so not dissimilar to ducted air heating. 99% of the systems I fit are ductless though.

Direct electric water heating isn't really an option now with energy prices as they are. Most houses on gas or oil will heat on demand directly through the boiler, but heat pumps don't have the power for this so a storage tank is required.

Homeowners *should* get their heating systems serviced every year, and all of the customers I fit heat pumps for sign up for this too for the reasons you state. Manufacturers will tell you they have a lifespan of around 15 years, which is probably fair given that I've been fitting them for 15 years now and some of the first ones are still going while other have been replaced. 

I'm about to swap out a unit I fitted 13 years ago for a new one in a couple of weeks. It could be repaired, but the repair bill would have been about £2500 while a complete replacement is £4600. So a bit like with a car, as they get older you have a decision to make when a big bill comes along.

 

The building design issue is indeed the huge one for Europe as a whole, due to the older housing stock. I didn’t realize the energy prices were as much higher as they apparently are now. I suspect some boffin will eventually figure a solution to providing cooling to retrofit to older European housing stocks more easily than the ductless solutions multitude of units, but the energy expenditure/cost will remain an issue.

[RH33]

f**k sake a heating engineering expert too.

[Derry Alli]

28 minutes ago, RH33 said:

f**k sake a heating engineering expert too.

It's a bot. It has to be. Nobody spends that long copy and pasting Google searches.

[TxRover]

10 hours ago, RH33 said:

f**k sake a heating engineering expert too.

Nah, just had to spend $8,000 to replace the whole damn air con and heater in the house the ex got in the divorce a couple of years later.

9 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

It's a bot. It has to be. Nobody spends that long copy and pasting Google searches.

[Soapy FFC]

For my electricity, I’m on the Octopus Go tariff for EVs. My fixed rate came to an end yesterday and the unit rates had been 35p peak and 7.5p for 4 hours overnight. My reminder email in May said the new tariff would be 38p/9.5p. I phoned them last week and the agent I spoke to said that was still the rate. A quick calculation based on actual usage showed it was still cheaper than the capped flexible rate of just over 29p so I renewed the Go tariff on Sunday. I got a pleasant surprise when the confirmation email said that the peak rate was now just under 30p.  so very little difference from the normal flexible rate. I reckon that I’m saving about £50 a month using the Go tariff compared to the standard one.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Soapy FFC