Lowland League General Discussion

[LongTimeLurker]

Saw these details tucked away in the new club licensing guidelines from the SFA:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/11172/sfa-club-licensing-manual-2024.pdf

For bronze level:

SEATS OR STANDING PLACES
There may be seats and standing. There shall be provision for wheelchairs.
LEVEL OF COVER
There shall be an adequate level of cover available for both home and away spectators. Minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places.
DOCUMENTED CAPACITY
The ground will have a capacity calculated by a competent person in accordance with the Green Guide.
FROM 2025
The minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places, at least 100 of these must be seated
AVAILABLE AREAS
Spectators will be capable of being accommodated in all areas within the ground which were ever constructed or used for one season or more as spectator areas. It is acceptable however for the club to leave a maximum of one area outwith the terms of the Safety Certificate and therefore
unavailable for use.

FACILITIES
• A designated accessible WC. The accessible WC must have grab rails and an emergency alarm as a minimum.
• Accessible parking.
• Access to catering or an ordering service in place
• Area available for wheelchair users under cover and with no obstructions to sightlines.
• Personal Assistant seating adjacent to wheelchair user spaces. It is best practice that this seating it beside the wheelchair user.
FROM 2025
A covered area with space for at least 4 wheelchairs and Personal Assistants will be required

If that's all that came out of the review of the licensing criteria, it's difficult to sustain a narrative that the SFA and SPFL are pulling up the drawbridge where progression is concerned.

[Dev]

21 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Yes the LL board would need to agree a rule change, get all the parties to the lower pyramid play off rules to consent as appropriate,  plus have all that ultimately sanctioned by SFA 

Thanks for that.

It does seem strange that, allegedly, the LL has been told by the SFA that it cannot grow to include more than 16 non B team clubs but the SFA still allows the LL to continue with minimal potential relegation places.

Likewise the SPFL rules and regs need to be approved annually by the SFA but the SFA makes no move to prevent the SPFL from continuing with minimal potential relegation places.

Of course, this is nothing whatsoever to do with the SFA. How come?

[Cowden Cowboy]

34 minutes ago, Dev said:

Thanks for that.

It does seem strange that, allegedly, the LL has been told by the SFA that it cannot grow to include more than 16 non B team clubs but the SFA still allows the LL to continue with minimal potential relegation places.

Likewise the SPFL rules and regs need to be approved annually by the SFA but the SFA makes no move to prevent the SPFL from continuing with minimal potential relegation places.

Of course, this is nothing whatsoever to do with the SFA. How come?

It’s changes to the rules the SFA approve - status quo areas of the League rules don’t really see SFA being involved 

[Cowden Cowboy]

37 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Saw these details tucked away in the new club licensing guidelines from the SFA:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/11172/sfa-club-licensing-manual-2024.pdf

For bronze level:

SEATS OR STANDING PLACES
There may be seats and standing. There shall be provision for wheelchairs.
LEVEL OF COVER
There shall be an adequate level of cover available for both home and away spectators. Minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places.
DOCUMENTED CAPACITY
The ground will have a capacity calculated by a competent person in accordance with the Green Guide.
FROM 2025
The minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places, at least 100 of these must be seated
AVAILABLE AREAS
Spectators will be capable of being accommodated in all areas within the ground which were ever constructed or used for one season or more as spectator areas. It is acceptable however for the club to leave a maximum of one area outwith the terms of the Safety Certificate and therefore
unavailable for use.

FACILITIES
• A designated accessible WC. The accessible WC must have grab rails and an emergency alarm as a minimum.
• Accessible parking.
• Access to catering or an ordering service in place
• Area available for wheelchair users under cover and with no obstructions to sightlines.
• Personal Assistant seating adjacent to wheelchair user spaces. It is best practice that this seating it beside the wheelchair user.
FROM 2025
A covered area with space for at least 4 wheelchairs and Personal Assistants will be required

If that's all that came out of the review of the licensing criteria, it's difficult to sustain a narrative that the SFA and SPFL are pulling up the drawbridge where progression is concerned.

But the key aspect is that you need to have a bronze license now instead of an entry level licence as has applied to date - that requires higher standards in the first place in a range of other areas not just those you highlight as now being part of bronze licensing changes

[LongTimeLurker]

Well aware of that but there's nothing in those that look like mission impossible for most clubs that want to build for promotion any more than installing a set of floodlights was a few years back. If they had been trying to end the Club 42 playoff as an annual event they could have upped the ante to 500 covered seats and adjusted the field dimensions to 100m by 64m. The latter would be difficult to fit inside the stock car track at Central Park, so it's not just former junior clubs that have reasons to worry about what they might do on this in future.

[Bundesliga Boy]

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Well aware of that but there's nothing in those that look like mission impossible for most clubs that want to build for promotion any more than installing a set of floodlights was a few years back. If they had been trying to end the Club 42 playoff as an annual event they could have upped the ante to 500 covered seats and adjusted the field dimensions to 100m by 64m. The latter would be difficult to fit inside the stock car track at Central Park, so it's not just former junior clubs that have reasons to worry about what they might do on this in future.

 

Hope you've not inadvertently given the top beaks some ideas for their next license upgrade lol. 

[Left Back]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Well aware of that but there's nothing in those that look like mission impossible for most clubs that want to build for promotion any more than installing a set of floodlights was a few years back. If they had been trying to end the Club 42 playoff as an annual event they could have upped the ante to 500 covered seats and adjusted the field dimensions to 100m by 64m. The latter would be difficult to fit inside the stock car track at Central Park, so it's not just former junior clubs that have reasons to worry about what they might do on this in future.

Who ever suggested that was on the table?

[LongTimeLurker]

Some posters on here have been concerned about it. Doubt it was ever on the agenda at SFA board level but some League One and Two clubs like Stenhousemuir that have been vocal about limiting relegation out of the SPFL may have been hoping for something more stringent.

[not man of the match]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Saw these details tucked away in the new club licensing guidelines from the SFA:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/11172/sfa-club-licensing-manual-2024.pdf

For bronze level:

SEATS OR STANDING PLACES
There may be seats and standing. There shall be provision for wheelchairs.
LEVEL OF COVER
There shall be an adequate level of cover available for both home and away spectators. Minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places.
DOCUMENTED CAPACITY
The ground will have a capacity calculated by a competent person in accordance with the Green Guide.
FROM 2025
The minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places, at least 100 of these must be seated
AVAILABLE AREAS
Spectators will be capable of being accommodated in all areas within the ground which were ever constructed or used for one season or more as spectator areas. It is acceptable however for the club to leave a maximum of one area outwith the terms of the Safety Certificate and therefore
unavailable for use.

FACILITIES
• A designated accessible WC. The accessible WC must have grab rails and an emergency alarm as a minimum.
• Accessible parking.
• Access to catering or an ordering service in place
• Area available for wheelchair users under cover and with no obstructions to sightlines.
• Personal Assistant seating adjacent to wheelchair user spaces. It is best practice that this seating it beside the wheelchair user.
FROM 2025
A covered area with space for at least 4 wheelchairs and Personal Assistants will be required

If that's all that came out of the review of the licensing criteria, it's difficult to sustain a narrative that the SFA and SPFL are pulling up the drawbridge where progression is concerned.

Is there not some requirements to do with a club doctor as well? Heard this mentioned elsewhere.

[Ginaro]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

FROM 2025
The minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places, at least 100 of these must be seated

Think that would only really affect Tranent and Bo'ness in tier 5, either some more standing enclosures to be built at non-league level in general or those small 100 seat stands where there's already lots of cover (for those looking to get to the SPFL of course).

Edited January 21 by Ginaro

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

It’s changes to the rules the SFA approve - status quo areas of the League rules don’t really see SFA being involved 

You may be right about that but isn't it, instead, that the SFA approve the rules of all competitions prior to the next season rather than simply just checking out any changes which a competition wishes to make to its' rules and regs? There's a world of difference between the two things.

[LongTimeLurker]

21 hours ago, not man of the match said:

Is there not some requirements to do with a club doctor as well? Heard this mentioned elsewhere.

There is but that's not mission impossible if clubs like Annan Athletic can do it. The pdf I linked is worth a read to see what all the differences are. The tricky one for some clubs like Pollok with relatively small pitches could be the pitch dimensions needing to be 95m by 60m. Not sure whether it would be an issue for Tranent but their park is also on the small side.

20 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Think that would only really affect Tranent and Bo'ness in tier 5, either some more standing enclosures to be built at non-league level in general or those small 100 seat stands where there's already lots of cover (for those looking to get to the SPFL of course).

No idea how easy it would be to rebuild but worth bearing in mind that Newtown Park still has the foundations in place of the main stand that was used in the old first division in the 1920s as well as a relatively large covered enclosure. If there's going to be a grace period to bring things up to bronze level after achieving promotion before the next season starts, I suspect it all becomes a lot less daunting than it could have been but have no inside knowledge on this.

Edited January 22 by LongTimeLurker

[Blue Brazil Forever]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Well aware of that but there's nothing in those that look like mission impossible for most clubs that want to build for promotion any more than installing a set of floodlights was a few years back. If they had been trying to end the Club 42 playoff as an annual event they could have upped the ante to 500 covered seats and adjusted the field dimensions to 100m by 64m. The latter would be difficult to fit inside the stock car track at Central Park, so it's not just former junior clubs that have reasons to worry about what they might do on this in future.

We did manage to squeeze the extra few yards to meet the requirement and we did hold a bronze licence for a number of years. I'm not sure if we still hold one (CC can confirm) but I think we have most or all of the conditions in place to qualify if needed.

[LongTimeLurker]

Think the current bronze level pitch dimensions requirement was deliberately designed to make it possible for your club and Brechin City to be able to do it.

Brechin's hedge and the threat that it may have to be chopped down to widen the pitch became a cause celebre in the media at one point. I think there was also speculation that you would have to leave Central Park.

If they ever tightened those requirements up to what they were originally planning a lot of former junior clubs would be completely screwed where progression is concerned.

Edited January 21 by LongTimeLurker

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

You may be right about that but isn't it, instead, that the SFA approve the rules of all competitions prior to the next season rather than simply just checking out any changes which a competition wishes to make to its' rules and regs? There's a world of difference between the two things.

No SFA just approves rule changes - would not be tenable or practical needing all rules to be agreed annually anew.  The existing rules have already been approved by SFA.  

[JCScouting]

5 hours ago, not man of the match said:

Is there not some requirements to do with a club doctor as well? Heard this mentioned elsewhere.

for Bronze, clubs are required to have a doctor at all home games

Edited January 21 by JCScouting

[EdinburghBlue]

20 hours ago, not man of the match said:

Is there not some requirements to do with a club doctor as well? Heard this mentioned elsewhere.

Yes, for a Bronze licence. The rules state that: 

"Clubs shall ensure that the following are in attendance at each home first team match:
• Club Doctor (as defined at 6.8)*
• Club Physiotherapist or Therapist (as defined at 6.9).
It is acceptable, in exceptional circumstances when the Club Doctor is unavailable and the Club are unable to source a replacement Doctor, for a qualified paramedic to be used as an alternative."

Also that such doctors "should hold an up to date Sports First Aid Course certificate from a Scottish FA approved provider."

Personally I think this is OTT given for most sparsely-attended tier 3/4 matches. Indeed, in most of these communities if a doctor wants to work extra hours they would be better doing some additional NHS work, given how difficult it can be to get a doctor's appointment!

ETA I've heard it suggested that not having a club doctor is the main reason why some ex-SPFL teams have dropped from Bronze to Entry.
 

Edited January 22 by EdinburghBlue

[Cowden Cowboy]

22 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Yes, for a Bronze licence. The rules state that: 

"Clubs shall ensure that the following are in attendance at each home first team match:
• Club Doctor (as defined at 6.8)*
• Club Physiotherapist or Therapist (as defined at 6.9).
It is acceptable, in exceptional circumstances when the Club Doctor is unavailable and the Club are unable to source a replacement Doctor, for a qualified paramedic to be used as an alternative."

Also that such doctors "should hold an up to date Sports First Aid Course certificate from a Scottish FA approved provider."

Personally I think this is OTT given for most sparsely-attended tier 3/4 matches. Indeed, in most of these communities if a doctor wants to work extra hours they would be better doing some additional NHS work, given how difficult it can be to get a doctor's appointment!

ETA I've heard it suggested that not having a club doctor is the main reason why some ex-SPFL teams have dropped from Bronze to Entry.
 

The rule has just been changed to a doctor at every home match instead of a doctor at every match.  Apart from the cost and lack of availability of doctors the key issue for ex-SPFL clubs dropping down was that in the SPFL where most clubs are bronze level when you went away from home if home club had doctor present that would suffice for both teams.  Cowdenbeath therefore in the SPFL would pay for a doctor to attend their home matches and use away team doctor for cover at away matches.  A paramedic can only be used for occasional cover not on a regular basis - eg your own doctor was not available for some reason for one match or if team you were visiting were entry level and would not have their own doctor present.  Once relegated to LL, Cowdenbeath would have needed to fund a doctor at every away match as well (apart from at Cumbernauld as they have a bronze licence).  It is hard enough for clubs to get home doctor cover - travelling round the country to away games is not attractive to most doctors and would be very expensive.  If you are lucky you have a doctor who is a fan and who may even become a board member.  

[EdinburghBlue]

10 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

The rule has just been changed to a doctor at every home match instead of a doctor at every match.  Apart from the cost and lack of availability of doctors the key issue for ex-SPFL clubs dropping down was that in the SPFL where most clubs are bronze level when you went away from home if home club had doctor present that would suffice for both teams.  Cowdenbeath therefore in the SPFL would pay for a doctor to attend their home matches and use away team doctor for cover at away matches.  A paramedic can only be used for occasional cover not on a regular basis - eg your own doctor was not available for some reason for one match or if team you were visiting were entry level and would not have their own doctor present.  Once relegated to LL, Cowdenbeath would have needed to fund a doctor at every away match as well (apart from at Cumbernauld as they have a bronze licence).  It is hard enough for clubs to get home doctor cover - travelling round the country to away games is not attractive to most doctors and would be very expensive.  If you are lucky you have a doctor who is a fan and who may even become a board member.  

That’s helpful, thanks. I’d heard the bit about Cowdenbeath changing status because of having to provide a doctor at all games because so few other LL teams provided one. I was then surprised when I saw the restriction to home games in the Licensing Manual. If there has to be a doctor at a game it makes sense to me that this should be down to the home team to source, so a helpful change to the requirements.

[Dev]

19 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

No SFA just approves rule changes - would not be tenable or practical needing all rules to be agreed annually anew.  The existing rules have already been approved by SFA.  

However, when the SFA alters rules and regs the leagues need to comply and that, as I see it anyway, is the reason why competition rules and regs are checked annually. Particularly in the case of the pyramid leagues.