The years of discontent, 2022/23

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Teachers in Scotland earn considerably more than this.

First position, statement as fact, includes all teachers…

3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

As you can see only probationary teachers in Scotland fall below the average.

If you cannot see that these salaries are "considerably more than the average" then I have to question what you would suggest qualifies as "considerable"

FWIW I'd quite happily argue that 13% above the average annual 48 week salary for the 39 weeks teachers work qualifies as considerable.

Second position, retrenchment on facts, admission of some below average, redefinition from considerably more to considerably more if you consider.

47 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Teachers in Scotland are, as demonstrated, compensated more for their services than the population at large by a considerable margin.

Third position, reestablishment of first, proven false position.

 

In all cases, 60-126% higher costs defined as “wee” and 13% above average average pay defined as considerable. That’s going to be a bit problematic…can’t have it both ways.

[Todd_is_God]

Teachers are just so poorly paid they can't afford a summer holiday is such a weird hill to die on.

[TxRover]

39 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Teachers are just so poorly paid they can't afford a summer holiday is such a weird hill to die on.

Willfully misrepresenting my position, and trying to make it something it’s nothing like, is a pretty desperate ploy.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Are you two still at it?

[Gaz]

It's perfectly possible to believe that teachers are both a) relatively well-paid compared to the population in general and b) relatively poorly-paid compared to the level of education / professional qualifications required and the number of hours actually worked versus what they are salaried for. The two positions can coexist.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Loonytoons said:

 

 

There's two red dots issued for something that's factually correct and that's just in the last 24 hours.

Neither posts would be considered shite content either.

Based on your hilariously low bar, perhaps. But others set higher standards and so that's why both you and the Texan village idiot earn red dots for shite content. 

Dry your eyes. 

[vikingTON]

30 minutes ago, Gaz said:

It's perfectly possible to believe that teachers are both a) relatively well-paid compared to the population in general and b) relatively poorly-paid compared to the level of education / professional qualifications required

If they are relatively poorly paid then surely teachers can simply transfer all their education and qualifications to other professions or alternative market, who are desperate to employ them at a fair market rate? For example, trained NHS staff can and are leaving their system in large numbers for more lucrative opportunities in Canada, Australia etc. 

The reality is that teaching in Scotland is largely a *what else* cul-de-sac post for the glut of mediocre graduates that get produced from the higher university system like cheap sausages every year. That's not meant to discredit the commitment of teachers who do their job to a higher standard than that - but that's the entry level. So to claim that there is a wage injustice because Teachers Aren't Valued Enough is simply nonsense. Those graduates are going to be on the dole or non-graduate roles if they don't do teaching, more often than not. So they take the perks of the job and plan to accept the serious downsides like acting as daycare to horrible children. Swings and roundabouts. 

Quote

the number of hours actually worked versus what they are salaried for. The two positions can coexist.

As shown on this thread, the number of hours actually worked by teachers is highly variable from one case to another. It's almost as if it's similar to many other white collar roles, where nobody is actually going to give you a Victoria Cross for working longer and/or less productively than others in the same role. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by vikingTON

[Gaz]

30 minutes ago, virginton said:

If they are relatively poorly paid then surely teachers can simply transfer all their education and qualifications to other professions or alternative market, who are desperate to employ them at a fair market rate? For example, trained NHS staff can and are leaving their system in large numbers for more lucrative opportunities in Canada, Australia etc. 

Loads of them are. There's a shortage of teachers in many subjects and universities are reporting less people applying to be on teacher training programmes. There's an upcoming staffing crisis because it's not particularly seen as an attractive career any more.

[Miguel Sanchez]

9 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Is the Fair Fortnight still a thing anywhere?

Good luck getting the second two weeks in July if you weren't married had kids and were over a certain age.

I remember being denied it because some old biddy "always took it because her man didn't get any other holidays".

I could understand her dilemma had he been alive. It was less convincing long after his death.

Things younger people wouldn't understand thread for this pish.

[Loonytoons]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Based on your hilariously low bar, perhaps. But others set higher standards and so that's why both you and the Texan village idiot earn red dots for shite content. 

Dry your eyes. 

That's better, a rebuttal rather than a dot.  I knew you could be retrained with a bit of patience.

Good boy.

 

[vikingTON]

41 minutes ago, Gaz said:

Loads of them are. 

Really? Where are they going to exactly? Which other professions are just itching to nab someone with a 2:1 from Stirling Uni and a PGCE? 

Quote

 

universities are reporting less people applying to be on teacher training programmes

And yet there's still a surplus of applicants allowing universities to select for PGCE programmes based on a broader criteria than just qualifications. Which isn't a bad thing at all, but demonstrates that demand does still outstrip supply for the funded training programs that are provided each year. 

The bottlenecks are in fact:

i) access to full funding to train as a teacher 

ii) teachers in a limited number of high value subjects and 

iii) rural teachers, because as stated above the Scottish university system produces Central Belt graduates like sausages. They just don't want to move to the rest of the country to teach there though. 

There's no dearth of qualified people to do the job of teaching then (personal aptitude excluded) - it's an allocation of resources problem only. That's why teaching is ultimately a buyer's market for labour compared to other professions. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by vikingTON

[DeeTillEhDeh]

51 minutes ago, virginton said:

Really? Where are they going to exactly? Which other professions are just itching to nab someone with a 2:1 from Stirling Uni and a PGCE? 

And yet there's still a surplus of applicants allowing universities to select for PGCE programmes based on a broader criteria than just qualifications. Which isn't a bad thing at all, but demonstrates that demand does still outstrip supply for the funded training programs that are provided each year. 

The bottlenecks are in fact:

i) access to full funding to train as a teacher 

ii) teachers in a limited number of high value subjects and 

iii) rural teachers, because as stated above the Scottish university system produces Central Belt graduates like sausages. They just don't want to move to the rest of the country to teach there though. 

There's no dearth of qualified people to do the job of teaching then (personal aptitude excluded) - it's an allocation of resources problem only. That's why teaching is ultimately a buyer's market for labour compared to other professions. 

No ii) is a bigger issue than you stated. 14 out of 20 subjects failed to reach their targets for recruitment in 2021-22 (the latest available figures) - there was a 15% shortfall overall.

Biggest issues were in Physics (50% shortfall), Technology (38%)  and Maths (23%). 

It's not just pay but the reality that people just don't want to become teachers because of a variety of other issues.

In my own school there's been 2 vacancies for Maths teachers for the last 2 years - not a single applicant for either job. Our CDT department took 20 months to fill one post.  My own department had a maternity vacancy last session - we didn't get a single applicant.

Interestingly the one area where we have no issue recruiting is in Social Studies - particularly History and Modern Studies applicants.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

24 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

No ii) is a bigger issue than you stated. 14 out of 20 subjects failed to reach their targets for recruitment in 2021-22 (the latest available figures) - there was a 15% shortfall overall.

Biggest issues were in Physics (50% shortfall), Technology (38%)  and Maths (23%). 

It's not just pay but the reality that people just don't want to become teachers because of a variety of other issues.

In my own school it's there's been 2 vacancies for Maths teachers fir the last 2 years - not a single applicant for either job. Our CDT department took 2 months to fill one post.  My own department had a maternity vacancy last session - we didn't get a single applicant.

Very little of which has got to do with the number of applicants for teacher training, which reliably outstrips actual government funding. You are conflating the outcome of that process with the demand at the beginning of it. As demonstrated by this source from just last month:

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/drop-scottish-teacher-training-applications-red-flag-teacher-pay

Quote

 

University admissions service Ucas said that by the January deadline, 10,150 applications had been made to study teaching in Scotland this year, compared with 13,960 in 2022 and 19,500 in 2021

In 2019 - before the Covid pandemic hit - there were 14,620 applications to postgraduate teacher education courses by the January deadline.

 

The reason why Scottish schools are not now benefiting from a 40% surge in qualified teachers between 2019 and 2021 figures has got nothing to do with the required education level or innate responsibilities of the job. It's an inability of government funding and university selection to recruit and then convert enough serious applications into effective teachers. The underlying demand of qualified applicants to do a funded PGCE and enter teaching is not the issue. They just don't get the funding and almost certainly move to another career that is not a profession.

Edited March 11, 2023 by vikingTON

[DeeTillEhDeh]

14 minutes ago, virginton said:

Very little of which has got to do with the number of applicants for teacher training, which reliably outstrips actual government funding. If the SG funds more training opportunities there will be more trained teachers - although subject-specific shortages will remain. You are conflating the outcome of that process with the demand at the beginning of it. As demonstrated by this source from just last month:

The explanation for why Scottish schools are not benefiting from that 40% surge in qualified teachers after 2021 has got nothing to do with the required education level or innate responsibilities of the job. It's an inability of government funding and university selection to convert enough proper applications into proper teachers. The underlying demand is simply not the issue but for a couple of subjects. 

The figures I quoted were for  applications to courses in 2021-22 - there was a shortage of applicants in those 14 subjects.  When you add in the issue of converting applicants into actual qualified teachers then for certain subjects it is an issue - and it isn’t an issue that pay will resolve.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/analysis/general/numbers-teacher-recruitment-scotland#:~:text=Subjects such as maths%2C physics,hit target (out of 20)

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[TxRover]

5 hours ago, virginton said:

Based on your hilariously low bar, perhaps. But others set higher standards and so that's why both you and the Texan village idiot earn red dots for shite content. 

Dry your eyes. 

That’s a bingo on the VT abuse card…

[Aufc]

15 hours ago, TxRover said:

Really, but you cannot quote a figure, eh? £35,841 is the average teacher pay that I see published, with starting rates as low as £28,000 rising to £47,000 after many years. So now we have a metric, 13% is “considerable”, eh? That seems a bit low to compensate for an yearly expense that’s 60-120% higher…or is it your contention that teachers aren’t entitled to holidays?

If you perhaps quoted figures, and refrained from just insulting people and hinting that you have some mystical knowledge, you would be more believable. I haven’t once said poor teachers, but have instead said there is validity to some of their complaints.

You do realise that the increase in summer holiday prices affects people other than teachers? Anyone with school aged children is impacted by it. It’s one of the downsides to having children, much the same as it’s a downside of being a teacher. It was y choice to have kids and there are many upsides whereby I am happy to accept this additional cost. 

[Monkey Tennis]

16 hours ago, virginton said:

 

The purpose of the dotting function is to highlight really shite content. 

That's not now you make use of it at all.

[Monkey Tennis]

23 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

 

Why don't you do it and show us all just how those poor teachers just can't afford to go on holiday.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Your difficulty is that you've already conceded that teachers deserve to receive more pay than is average, due to the requirements and nature of the job.

Now if that's the case, then suggesting that this additional money instead serves as compensation for more expensive holidays, doesn't really work.

[Monkey Tennis]

11 hours ago, virginton said:

 

As shown on this thread, the number of hours actually worked by teachers is highly variable from one case to another. It's almost as if it's similar to many other white collar roles, where nobody is actually going to give you a Victoria Cross for working longer and/or less productively than others in the same role. 

The roles and the commitments they entail are also vastly variable.

Most of those working longer hours are not, in my experience, martyring themselves or being inefficient, although both features do, naturally, exist.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, Aufc said:

You do realise that the increase in summer holiday prices affects people other than teachers? Anyone with school aged children is impacted by it. It’s one of the downsides to having children, much the same as it’s a downside of being a teacher. It was y choice to have kids and there are many upsides whereby I am happy to accept this additional cost. 

That's not strictly true - there's been a growing number of pupils being taken out of school for holidays during school term, particularly in the last week before any holidays.

Personally I can't blame them.