The Queen of the South thread

[Distant Doonhamer]

1 hour ago, ThroughtheTurnstiles said:

Less than a 3rd of the season gone, winnable game on Saturday which would put you 3 points behind Morton, are you already writing off hopes of doing anything other than battling? 

Jeez. It was an attempt to be humorous. We really are shite we may be no more shite/bankrupt than one or two others. Battling would be good to be honest. 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

The manager was no better he inherited a great squad and won league one with the only full time team in the league..Think I could have managed that quality team and would have done as well. It was a top squad with likes of Carmichael Reilly N Clark Durnan Holt & Mcshane all moving to higher league teams after that season also had like a of Robinson in goal and experience like McGuffie & Higgins. 

Of those players only Nicky Clark moved at the end of that season (technically to a lower league, though it was Rangers).

Johnston signed Durnan, and re-signed Clark and changed him to a forward (Gus played him in midfield). He also gave Holt his debut, used Reilly far more and signed crucial players like Mitchell, Lyle and Young so lets not pretend all he did was play other people's players.

Ian McShane spent almost all of that season injured and played about 2 or 3 games under Johnston. It was McIntyre who rediscovered him and put his faith in him. 

He did get the fortune of a group of young players coming through together but he gave them opportunities and an attacking outlook. Its often ignored when dismissing it as a forgone conclusion that we would win that league that we went into the season as 2nd favourites behind Ayr United. Nobody at the time thought it eould be a formality.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[HoBNob]

1 hour ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

The manager was no better he inherited a great squad and won league one with the only full time team in the league..Think I could have managed that quality team and would have done as well. It was a top squad with likes of Carmichael Reilly N Clark Durnan Holt & Mcshane all moving to higher league teams after that season also had like a of Robinson in goal and experience like McGuffie & Higgins. 

As there careers would prove those players weren't really that good, they were good for league 1, some of them would struggle in the championship later in their career. Outwith Clark are any of those players still playing above league 1? Found there level imo. 

 

[Skyline Drifter]

Just now, Grant228 said:

As there careers would prove those players weren't really that good, they were good for league 1, some of them would struggle in the championship later in their career. Outwith Clark are any of those players still playing above league 1? Found there level imo. 

 

Durnan was almost certainly over-rated. All the others were decent. Carmichael barely kicked a ball after leaving us due to injury. Notwithstanding his awful spell with you Gavin Reilly did well at St Mirren and won the title and has got clubs at English Leage 1 and 2 level since. Holt played over 100 Premiership games before moving to Cyprus where he is again now. Easily a top end Championship or bottom end Premiership player. McShane won a League Cup with Ross County and was a regular in the Premier for a couple of years before winning the title with St Mirren too. He has gone backwards since certainly and gone non-league but he certainly did well enough above League 1 for 2 or 3 years.

[HoBNob]

34 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Durnan was almost certainly over-rated. All the others were decent. Carmichael barely kicked a ball after leaving us due to injury. Notwithstanding his awful spell with you Gavin Reilly did well at St Mirren and won the title and has got clubs at English Leage 1 and 2 level since. Holt played over 100 Premiership games before moving to Cyprus where he is again now. Easily a top end Championship or bottom end Premiership player. McShane won a League Cup with Ross County and was a regular in the Premier for a couple of years before winning the title with St Mirren too. He has gone backwards since certainly and gone non-league but he certainly did well enough above League 1 for 2 or 3 years.

While those players played at those levels, how many actually done any good at them? McShane, Holt, Durnan and Reilly all played at the Premiership level, non were particularly well received by there clubs and all were shipped out for not being good enough at that level. 

Gavin Reilly has had a good 6 months since he left QoTS at St Mirren, since then he's had 10 league goals in 3 full years, he got a club at league 1 level, didn't do well at that level, and hasn't done well at league 2 either. His 6 months at St Mirren was evidently the exception, rather than the rule. 

If Holt was easily a top end championship player he probably could've been doing with looking like one last year. 

McShane(outwith Clarke) has had the best time of it, and has still went non league by the apparent prime years. 

[19QOS19]

As there careers would prove those players weren't really that good, they were good for league 1, some of them would struggle in the championship later in their career. Outwith Clark are any of those players still playing above league 1? Found there level imo. 
 

While those players played at those levels, how many actually done any good at them? McShane, Holt, Durnan and Reilly all played at the Premiership level, non were particularly well received by there clubs and all were shipped out for not being good enough at that level. 
Gavin Reilly has had a good 6 months since he left QoTS at St Mirren, since then he's had 10 league goals in 3 full years, he got a club at league 1 level, didn't do well at that level, and hasn't done well at league 2 either. His 6 months at St Mirren was evidently the exception, rather than the rule. 
If Holt was easily a top end championship player he probably could've been doing with looking like one last year. 
McShane(outwith Clarke) has had the best time of it, and has still went non league by the apparent prime years. 

I'm struggling to find your point here. The discussion began with why AJ did so well the first time and some have said it was because he had players far better than the competition (which is correct).

You've said League 1 was their level and they were "good" L1 players. Considering how much they absolutely walked the division I'd say they are better than bog standard L1 players. Maybe not much higher but every one of the players mentioned could comfortably get a game at this level.

Where they are playing now is completely irrelevant considering every single one of them will be on more money than they would be if they joined a side at this level with possibly 2 or 3 exceptions.

[HoBNob]

58 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I'm struggling to find your point here. The discussion began with why AJ did so well the first time and some have said it was because he had players far better than the competition (which is correct).

You've said League 1 was their level and they were "good" L1 players. Considering how much they absolutely walked the division I'd say they are better than bog standard L1 players. Maybe not much higher but every one of the players mentioned could comfortably get a game at this level.

Where they are playing now is completely irrelevant considering every single one of them will be on more money than they would be if they joined a side at this level with possibly 2 or 3 exceptions.

That the abilities of said players was vastly overstated, as their careers would show. 

Every one of the players probably could get a game at say QoTS, not a single one of them is going to be getting into a side that's actually got a good squad at this level. 

 

Here's hoping they've got plenty cash saved up, outwith Holt they're all on the downwards trajectory. 

[ALOREBURNE]

12 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

That the abilities of said players was vastly overstated, as their careers would show. 

Every one of the players probably could get a game at say QoTS, not a single one of them is going to be getting into a side that's actually got a good squad at this level. 

 

Here's hoping they've got plenty cash saved up, outwith Holt they're all on the downwards trajectory. 

I don’t understand why you’re so interested anyway seems a bit odd. Anyway, in a season where we finished on 92 points, Nicky Clark finished on 41 goals in all competitions, we beat Rangers at Ibrox and went on to beat Premier League bound Partick in the challenge cup final, knocked Hibs out the league cup. 
Their abilities have not been ‘vastly overrated’.  They were a terrific team that season regardless. Where they are now in their career 7/8 years down the line doesn’t change that and isn’t really relevant. 

[19QOS19]

That the abilities of said players was vastly overstated, as their careers would show. 
Every one of the players probably could get a game at say QoTS, not a single one of them is going to be getting into a side that's actually got a good squad at this level. 
 
Here's hoping they've got plenty cash saved up, outwith Holt they're all on the downwards trajectory. 

So they can now get a game at Championship level and haven't found their level at League 1 like you previously said?

I'm sure they'll have plenty of cash saved up given they'll all be on more money than the majority of players at this level regardless of their apparent trajectory.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 hours ago, Grant228 said:

While those players played at those levels, how many actually done any good at them? McShane, Holt, Durnan and Reilly all played at the Premiership level, non were particularly well received by there clubs and all were shipped out for not being good enough at that level. 

Gavin Reilly has had a good 6 months since he left QoTS at St Mirren, since then he's had 10 league goals in 3 full years, he got a club at league 1 level, didn't do well at that level, and hasn't done well at league 2 either. His 6 months at St Mirren was evidently the exception, rather than the rule. 

If Holt was easily a top end championship player he probably could've been doing with looking like one last year. 

McShane(outwith Clarke) has had the best time of it, and has still went non league by the apparent prime years. 

 

41 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

That the abilities of said players was vastly overstated, as their careers would show. 

Every one of the players probably could get a game at say QoTS, not a single one of them is going to be getting into a side that's actually got a good squad at this level. 

 

Here's hoping they've got plenty cash saved up, outwith Holt they're all on the downwards trajectory. 

I'm not sure what relevance the amount of cash they saved has to anything to be honest. I'm not even all that sure what odds it makes what level they are playing at 8 years later either.  And I certainly wouldn't say Nicky Clark is on a downwards trajectory given he's playing every week in the Premier at the moment and scoring regularly (not sure if you meant to include him in that dismissal?).

Carmichael barely kicked a ball after leaving us. His full time career was buggered by a persistent groin problem. We'll never know if he might have cut it at a higher level or not.

Take the point about Reilly but it's difficult to be sure how he'd do back in Scotland given that he hasn't played here since leaving St Mirren. He certainly didn't set the heather alight at Bristol Rovers but he's playing regularly for Carlisle United even if not starting and they are flying at the top of the table at the moment. Dunfermline fans are likely to under-rate Reilly for obvious reasons (and yes, I know the opposite is true for QoS fans).

I think we were all a bit guilty of over-rating Mark Durnan. His decision making was always a bit rash but I don't think it's any coincidence he's gone massively backwards since not having Chris Higgins, Andy Dowie and Ryan McGuffie around him, talking him through games. He was paired with another young and inconsistent centre back in Coll Donaldson at United and I'm not sure he's had a steady senior partner in his spells with Dunfermline and Falkirk either (Ashcroft?).

Holt did fine last year and was certainly our best defender after Brownlie left. He didn't hit the heights he did in his first spell and I acknowledge Dom Thomas tore him apart in one game which you are probably focusing on but he was certainly one of the better left backs in the division.

I'm not really sure what's happened to McShane after a solid enough start to his time at St Mirren. He's another not to recover from the black hole at Falkirk really but from what I've heard he decided to look at a career outside football and wanted to go part time. No doubt Darvel are throwing him enough to money to warrant playing at that level.

 

[SUPERSOUTH]

£500,000 grant incoming?? 

[die hard doonhamer]

14 minutes ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

£500,000 grant incoming?? 

Absolutely ridiculous. It's great for the club, but it's a ridiculous use of public money.

[Steeplechat]

Why shouldn’t football clubs receive some much needed money when everyone else is ?

Without these grants several clubs wouldn’t survive this coronavirus crisis.

[die hard doonhamer]

1 minute ago, Steeplechat said:

Why shouldn’t football clubs receive some much needed money when everyone else is ?

Without these grants several clubs wouldn’t survive this coronavirus crisis.

Find me another example of a business being given a grant worth more than a third of their turnover in a normal year and then you'll maybe have a point.

Also, football clubs have brought most of the financial shit show on themselves by deciding to play. They didn't need to, and so should have to deal with those consequences.

[Steeplechat]

You wanting a club to support or not ?

[FrankReynolds]

20 minutes ago, Steeplechat said:

Why shouldn’t football clubs receive some much needed money when everyone else is ?

Without these grants several clubs wouldn’t survive this coronavirus crisis.

Everyone else? 

[die hard doonhamer]

3 minutes ago, Steeplechat said:

You wanting a club to support or not ?

I'm fairly certain that our club would be fine regardless of the grant thanks to the prudence of the board. 

As I've said, it's great for the club. It provokes anger in me rather than relief though, because it's a stupid use of public money.

[Trogdor]

4 minutes ago, FrankReynolds said:

Everyone else? 

Off the top of my head...

Eat out to help out; furlough; extended furlough; small business grants; government guaranteed loans; rates relief; vat deferral; grants for arts, culture and heritage and much much more. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Trogdor

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Of those players only Nicky Clark moved at the end of that season (technically to a lower league, though it was Rangers).

Johnston signed Durnan, and re-signed Clark and changed him to a forward (Gus played him in midfield). He also gave Holt his debut, used Reilly far more and signed crucial players like Mitchell, Lyle and Young so lets not pretend all he did was play other people's players.

Ian McShane spent almost all of that season injured and played about 2 or 3 games under Johnston. It was McIntyre who rediscovered him and put his faith in him. 

He did get the fortune of a group of young players coming through together but he gave them opportunities and an attacking outlook. Its often ignored when dismissing it as a forgone conclusion that we would win that league that we went into the season as 2nd favourites behind Ayr United. Nobody at the time thought it eould be a formality.

Yes, good post.

He really did benefit from a tailwind and I've no desire to defend AJ's latest floundering.

The fact is though that his first spell was outrageously successful and he can't rationally be relieved of all responsibility for it.  I sure as Hell wouldn't have retained Nicky Clark from the Gus wreckage, but he did and it proved a masterstroke.  AJ certainly got lucky with the simultaneous emergence of a couple of good local players, but he did make clever signings like Young and what looked like the retrograde step of acquiring Lyle.

The point you make about Ayr starting that season as favourites, with bookies as well as on here, is absolutely valid.  It requires a revisionism to see promotion that season as inevitable.  

That's before we consider that the title was sealed early enough for the pitch to be banked with snow at the time; as well as the fact that Hibs were beaten in the League Cup; as were Rangers and the top two in the division above, en route to winning the Challenge Cup.

 

Right now, AJ seems utterly bereft of ideas, control and wisdom.  Given this, I think the club needs to part company with him.  

However, his first spell with us was fantastically successful.  Circumstances conspired to help that, but it's daft to pretend that his part was negligible.

It's possible to recognise he did very well then; while simultaneously recognising that he's hopeless now.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Monkey Tennis

[SUPERSOUTH]

1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, good post.

He really did benefit from a tailwind and I've no desire to defend AJ's latest floundering.

The fact is though that his first spell was outrageously successful and he can't rationally be relieved of all responsibility for it.  I sure as Hell wouldn't have retained Nicky Clark from the Gus wreckage, but he did and it proved a masterstroke.  AJ certainly got lucky with the simultaneous emergence of a couple of good local players, but he did make clever signings like Young and what looked like the retrograde step of acquiring Lyle.

The point you make about Ayr starting that season as favourites, with bookies as well as on here, is absolutely valid.  It requires a revisionism to see promotion that season as inevitable.  

That's before we consider that the title was sealed early enough for the pitch to be banked with snow at the time; as well as the fact that Hibs were beaten in the League Cup; as were Rangers and the top two in our division en route to the Challenge Cup.

 

Right now, AJ seems utterly bereft of ideas, control and wisdom.  Given this, I think the club needs to part company with him.  

However, his first spell with us was fantastically successful.  Circumstances conspired to help that, but it's daft to pretend that his part was negligible.

It's possible to recognise he did very well then; while simultaneously recognising that he's hopeless now.

Time for the board to use some of the the £500,000 wisely AJ.