The Queen of the South thread

[JessieField]

6 hours ago, The Caul Back said:

On Facebook, any truth that a Russian is training with Queens.
Maybe I spy for Mr Puttin lol.

I heard it was Ivan Journeymanski

[Rjc-1988]

Maybe if they appoint a fan rep you'll find out. [emoji6]
One of the main things preventing people from attending, imo, is the lack of any genuine challenge in getting to the top tier. Last season, it petered out after 8 games, far too soon to have any significant impact on crowds. We need to be challenging in February/March before anybody is going to consider it to be serious. We have never had that. And after more than 50 years, there aren't that many around who can remember us being in the top division.
Given that people can watch any number of better quality games on tv, not that many attend now just to see a match. The only thing that might get non-regulars to show up is the prospect of success. So, if pretty much nobody has ever seen a serious challenge, it is difficult to get them to believe that one is going to happen any time soon. It is only after it starts to happen that anybody other than the regulars will be tempted out.
It could be argued that reaching the play-offs represented a possible challenge. But nobody seriously thought we were going to get through them. The best chance was when we were up against Falkirk and Accies. Even then, we fell at the first hurdle. After being 3-1 up in the second half of the second leg. So, another thing contributing to the lack of belief amongst the fans and potential fans. Less home fans showed up for the first leg against Falkirk than had been at the last league game of the season against Livi. That is a measure of the complete lack of belief we are dealing with. And those who didn't go would have their view reinforced by the way the second leg panned out.
Trying to undo the negative view of the club caused by more than 50 years spent outside the top tier is an almost impossible task. I think we will only attract more fans when promotion looks like a realistic possibility. And as generations have grown up not seeing it, there is no belief that it is going to happen. And a lack of people through the gates makes the possibility even less likely, so it becomes self-fulfilling. It would need some form of external funding and we don't have that. Having Dobbie in the team this season represents the best chance we will ever have. So, it is unfortunate that there isn't even enough money to sustain a genuine promotion push for one season. The timing of the loss on the failed concert and missing out on the live tv match against Celtic couldn't have been worse, really.

My original post on the general subject of ambition and belief is similar to your theme.

I agree that we have been out of the top flight for so long that the fans just don't believe it can happen to us. If you look at teams in a similar bracket to us we are one of the few if not the only team from our broad peer group who have not taken our place in the top league over the past 50 years.

Teams like Airdrie, Morton, Raith, Hamilton, Dumbarton Falkirk,Inverness, Livvy, Ayr - have all had seats at top table. I have excluded Gretna and Ross County due to the financing that they have benefitted from and you could probably add Livvy as well.

If you take two individuals or two teams of broadly equal ability - one with burning ambition and one with a "what will be attitude" it is pretty obvious that the ambition will drive results and achievement on a bigger scale over the piece.

Don't get me wrong with the sort of competition that we have faced in recent years an over supply of drive and ambition would not have gained us promotion. I remember Dobbie saying upon his arrival - " that he had unfinished business here and he wanted to help take us up". I loved that comment because it is exactly what I wanted to hear - someone who was thinking big and had a clear objective. I don't think I heard anyone at the club reinforcing Dobbie's statement and it was really left out there as a "lone voice".

This year is a perfect case in point - as things stand we are about 8/1 to 10/1 to win the league. If we were to string some good results together in next few weeks we might just shorten to around 5/1. Now that is as short as we have probably ever been in recent memory so it reinforces the fact this years title race is wide open.

I may be in the minority - no surprise there, but we need the Management and Club in general to start leading us on this journey. I would bet that Dobbie will already be looking at the table and the competition and thinking we can win this but we need more than him believing especially Gary Naysmith.

The team with biggest budget doesn't always prevail. Of course it would take a monumental effort for us to edge out say Dundee United but of course it is possible.

I get all the other reasons why crowds are dropping alarmingly at Palmy but the biggest single reason is the lack of belief that we can really compete to achieve promotion.

[Monkey Tennis]

I get the points being made, but I think the extent to which promotion to the top flight is a Holy Grail for the wider local population is being overstated a bit.

Of course it feels that way for those of us that already care a lot, but I'm not convinced that it's as big for those that don't currently bother.  If it was, surely our play-off crowds would have been better.  

I just think there's been a general decline which has seen sides like Morton suffer similarly.  Our gates never got good last season, even when we were sweeping everyone aside.  Now the point has been made that gates didn't climb because it was so early and we've never challenged in the spring.  While that's true, a shift is still evident.  Back in 2003, we beat ICT in October to go top and it was a really big deal, matched with big gates.  We were still enjoying a promotion Buzz 18 months on, but that alone doesn't explain where our crowds have gone.

It's all regrettable and I'm usually happy enough to blame the board for things.  I honestly don't see big failings here though.

[Homer Thompson]

To give you a rough idea of how much work is involved in a club sending out correspondence to a mailing list, I help put one together for Raith Rovers each week, which goes out to approximately 2,300 folk.
 
We were essentially starting from scratch as we didn't have too many email addresses, other than some who took part in the lottery or that we'd had on file through season tickets sales etc.
 
We realised we had an opportunity with the Ramsdens Cup final, so asked each person buying a ticket for their email details.
 
This involved volunteers working shifts over a two or three day period to take those details, which all then had to be inputed into a system.
 
Considering we had literally hundreds of emails addresses, you can imagine how long that took.
 
We also have a button on the website where folk can sign up for the newsletter.
 
In terms of putting the actual email together, it probably takes me a couple of hours to do each week, before another volunteer checks it over and adds a few bits and bobs, which maybe takes another hour or so.
 
The feedback on it has been reasonably favourable, but it's a genuinely massive piece of work, and extremely time consuming.
 

I think we're in a slightly different position though. We already have a number of email addresses from other sources and things like season tickets, hospitality customers etc would be built up over time, rather than one huge job.

It must be a pretty comprehensive email if it takes that long to put together. A newsletter type email might be worth looking into but I think we have easier things that could be done and put together a lot easier.

[Monkey Tennis]

Do we really need newsletter style e-mails, when there's a website?

It's asking a Hell of a lot from people, for very little gain that I can see.  I'd imagine that the vast majority of e-mail addresses on any database, belong to those who already go.

[Homer Thompson]

Do we really need newsletter style e-mails, when there's a website?
It's asking a Hell of a lot from people, for very little gain that I can see.  I'd imagine that the vast majority of e-mail addresses on any database, belong to those who already go.

I'm not sure we do, no. It's been discussed as an option for doing stuff for the junior blues, most likely alongside a letter or something else.

As I said, I think the main benefit lies in promoting things like hospitality, soccer camps, merchandise etc.

[NorthSouth]

Do we really need newsletter style e-mails, when there's a website?
It's asking a Hell of a lot from people, for very little gain that I can see.  I'd imagine that the vast majority of e-mail addresses on any database, belong to those who already go.

Yes, master the art of communicating on the website and social media first I'd say.

[Adamski]

On 8/30/2017 at 12:41, Doonhamer doon south said:

Could those people be persuaded to come back to home games or is their mind set on never again.

It was in my mind a poor decision the vote but enough time has passed since that decision I think where people could move on hopefully. A sort of "forgiven but not forgotten" way of thinking. It's a shame when supporters continue to effectively boycott their presence based on something that happened a few years back.

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.

Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.

I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Adamski

[NorthSouth]

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.
Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.
I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

Sadly you are not alone, it still baffles me. A lot of the group I used to go with hardly make any games now. Probably a group of 7 or 8 are now down to 2 for every home game with an additional 2 making every other. It came at a time where lives were changing at our age group and kids/prioritising money became a consideration. The vote gave many (in my opinion) the reason they needed to stay at home.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 minutes ago, Mr X said:

I'm not sure we do, no. It's been discussed as an option for doing stuff for the junior blues, most likely alongside a letter or something else.

As I said, I think the main benefit lies in promoting things like hospitality, soccer camps, merchandise etc.

Yes, but things like the camps are promoted that way already anyway.

It's good if these other services can be provided.  However, it would be reliant on volunteers and while it might be nice, again I don't think it would have any discernible impact on crowds.

I'm not arguing with you by the way.  I think we pretty much agree on most of it.  I'm a bit more fatalistic about it all maybe though.  I think it largely is what it is.

[Homer Thompson]

12 minutes ago, NorthSouth said:

 

Yes, master the art of communicating on the website and social media first I'd say.

 

Theres certainly more could be done but, come on then, lets hear your ideas for that too.

[Homer Thompson]

16 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, but things like the camps are promoted that way already anyway.

It's good if these other services can be provided.  However, it would be reliant on volunteers and while it might be nice, again I don't think it would have any discernible impact on crowds.

I'm not arguing with you by the way.  I think we pretty much agree on most of it.  I'm a bit more fatalistic about it all maybe though.  I think it largely is what it is.

No, its unlikely to have much impact on crowds, certainly not in the short term.

I dont think many of the things that go on are promoted anywhere near enough. A simple email on a Monday or Tuesday before a home game, if there are hospitality places available, might be enough to prompt a few extra people to go. Same with things like soccer camps and the, potentially very powerful but hugely under advertised, Saturday clubs. Its not going to have a huge effect but its a little extra money coming into the club for what would be fairly minimal effort - once the initial setup has been done, of course.

ETA - it also doesnt have to be used for marketing. It could be used to send a "welcome" email to kids coming to soccer camps or a "thank you" afterwards with pics etc, or to ask hospitality guests what they thought. Theres a whole range of things

Edited August 31, 2017 by Mr X

[Guest Flash]

22 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I get the points being made, but I think the extent to which promotion to the top flight is a Holy Grail for the wider local population is being overstated a bit.

Of course it feels that way for those of us that already care a lot, but I'm not convinced that it's as big for those that don't currently bother.  If it was, surely our play-off crowds would have been better.  

I just think there's been a general decline which has seen sides like Morton suffer similarly.  Our gates never got good last season, even when we were sweeping everyone aside.  Now the point has been made that gates didn't climb because it was so early and we've never challenged in the spring.  While that's true, a shift is still evident.  Back in 2003, we beat ICT in October to go top and it was a really big deal, matched with big gates.  We were still enjoying a promotion Buzz 18 months on, but that alone doesn't explain where our crowds have gone.

It's all regrettable and I'm usually happy enough to blame the board for things.  I honestly don't see big failings here though.

I mentioned the play-off crowds earlier and, imo, it was a lack of belief that we were actually going to win them which contributed to the low crowds. I think if we had got to the play-off final we would have seen an upsurge.

I think the promotion buzz of 2003 does explain the crowds back then. We had been in the 2nd division for 13 consecutive seasons and were almost relegated to the 3rd. Coming back up in 2002 was a much bigger deal than it was in 2013 because we had been away from the First Division for so long. Topping that league was a new and fairly unique experience, especially considering it wasn't that long since we were bumming around near the foot of the 2nd.

Since then, we spent 10 consecutive years in the First, or Championship, with just the one year in the 2nd since 2002. Being in this division is no longer a big deal. Being top of the league early on is similarly nothing special, especially when Hibs and a newly relegated Dundee U were in the same division. Nobody seriously expected us to maintain top spot.

You're right about a general decline. But, imo, we have suffered from that in addition to the complete lack of belief. The reason Gretna were able to steal our fans was because people are attracted by success. As I said, very few people just go to the match now. They need the games to matter, with the propspect of being associated with winning. Only the committed will go to Queens v Dumbarton or whoever when there is no realistic prospect of anything coming of it. I'd like to think that if we played Dumbarton in March when we were 7 points clear at the top, we'd get a lot more than 1,350.

However, you might be right about the general population not even being excited about a genuine challenge. It is difficult to know for sure because we have never been in that position. However, if I'm completely wrong and people wouldn't even come out to see us getting promoted to the Premiership, then things are even worse than I thought. 

[Doonhamer doon south]

1 minute ago, Mr X said:

No, its unlikely to have much impact on crowds, certainly not in the short term.

I dont think many of the things that go on are promoted anywhere near enough. A simple email on a Monday or Tuesday before a home game, if there are hospitality places available, might be enough to prompt a few extra people to go. Same with things like soccer camps and the, potentially very powerful but hugely under advertised, Saturday clubs. Its not going to have a huge effect but its a little extra money coming into the club for what would be fairly minimal effort - once the initial setup has been done, of course.

You need volunteers though to help put these ideas and plans into motion

[kleinfaethetoon]

The club need to find a way to re-engage with the people of Dumfries and surrounding area, instead of sitting back and just expecting people to turn up. All business have to market themselves to attract custom and QOS are no different.

[Homer Thompson]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

I mentioned the play-off crowds earlier and, imo, it was a lack of belief that we were actually going to win them which contributed to the low crowds. I think if we had got to the play-off final we would have seen an upsurge.

I think the promotion buzz of 2003 does explain the crowds back then. We had been in the 2nd division for 13 consecutive seasons and were almost relegated to the 3rd. Coming back up in 2002 was a much bigger deal than it was in 2013 because we had been away from the First Division for so long. Topping that league was a new and fairly unique experience, especially considering it wasn't that long since we were bumming around near the foot of the 2nd.

Since then, we spent 10 consecutive years in the First, or Championship, with just the one year in the 2nd since 2002. Being in this division is no longer a big deal. Being top of the league early on is similarly nothing special, especially when Hibs and a newly relegated Dundee U were in the same division. Nobody seriously expected us to maintain top spot.

You're right about a general decline. But, imo, we have suffered from that in addition to the complete lack of belief. The reason Gretna were able to steal our fans was because people are attracted by success. As I said, very few people just go to the match now. They need the games to matter, with the propspect of being associated with winning. Only the committed will go to Queens v Dumbarton or whoever when there is no realistic prospect of anything coming of it. I'd like to think that if we played Dumbarton in March when we were 7 points clear at the top, we'd get a lot more than 1,350.

However, you might be right about the general population not even being excited about a genuine challenge. It is difficult to know for sure because we have never been in that position. However, if I'm completely wrong and people wouldn't even come out to see us getting promoted to the Premiership, then things are even worse than I thought. 

This. I think you're spot on, its not so much about the success of the team - or rather the league position, if you like - but the importance of the game

1 minute ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

You need volunteers though to help put these ideas and plans into motion

Yes, you do. 

[Homer Thompson]

1 minute ago, kleinfaethetoon said:

The club need to find a way to re-engage with the people of Dumfries and surrounding area, instead of sitting back and just expecting people to turn up. All business have to market themselves to attract custom and QOS are no different.

You're right, but how?

[NorthSouth]

Theres certainly more could be done but, come on then, lets hear your ideas for that too.

What do you mean? I mean that communication should be better Mark was doing a great job with his updates which seem to have dried up, at the supporters meeting my honest opinion was that he has started to become a bit more defensive and not as transparent. Maybe that's my negativity tho.

My hope is that when an SLO is in place again that we move forward, this will be determined on what they are able/allowed to do.

The twitter feed seems to have improved so that's a good step forward.

[Doonhamer doon south]

19 minutes ago, Adamski said:

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.

Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.

I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

Its a shame that you and others feel that way. I wasn't happy about the way the vote went myself but the board have gone on to do some good things at the club and they could be much much worse. Football clubs in the UK have had some terrible chairmen/owners/boards in recent times. Leeds, Livingston, Hearts, Leyton Orient, Cardiff, Newcastle, Rangers to name but a few. Queens have had a half decent board of late. The board can only make better that decision and learn from the mistakes. I hope you and others are able to make it to more games to support the club and the team in person. 

[NorthSouth]

You need volunteers though to help put these ideas and plans into motion

What's involved in volunteering then, how do people get involved. Just contact the club? What are they looking for volunteers for? Obviously people's skill sets vary, if the club needs someone to help with an IT based email service for example I'm certainly not the man. I'm sure I could spare some time each week though if I felt that I could be of benefit.