The Queen of the South thread

[Truthhurts]

Yes he took us to the cup final, but there was only one unexpected result in our run, it's not like we played five spl sides. Yes, it was magic, but it shouldn't be a reason to bring him back. Rememer how utter shite we were at times under Chis.

Aye, we beat the weakest Aberdeen team in their history, and they still put 3 goals past us.

[Truthhurts]

This is the one time in our history where there is no room for error. With the SPL 2 almost certainly coming into effect very soon, we cannot afford to go down and we must make the right appointment. The bookies have John Connolly as favourite, I'm not sure he has the contacts needed to make Queens competitive. Gordon Chisholm is the bookies second choice, that would be a bad option, Queens don't have the funds to sign high earners any more. After that there is the cheaper way to go with Jim Thomson or Neil Scally? I don't know, just heard that Allan Main is now one of the front runners though, did Rowan Alexander no shag his wife?

[QosLoyal]

Theres already a thread about this anyway somewhere couple of pages back..

[Truthhurts]

Perhaps the Queen of the South thread was the place to deposit this nugget of wisdon?

No, this deserves it's own thread, if we did this under your rules we'd be trolling too long every day. It would be boring too, a message board deserves more varied topics.

[GordieBoy80]

Carlo Ancelotti's available.

[Skyline Drifter]

Not saying that there is any need to wait to 1st June. However given the protracted manner in which the board currently operate I fancy an announcement on 1st June or later.

I'd be relatively surprised if they were able to interview people and make a decision so quickly as to be making any announcement on June 1st. I'd like to think we'd have a new manager by some point next week though.

And he also left us in the lurch when the Dee's came calling. He said he was going to a bigger, more ambituous club. He couldn't wait to be shot of us. For that reason alone he should never ever be invited back.

He did go to a bigger more ambitious club and for a significant pay rise. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Dundee are not a bigger club than us regardless of what mess they got in afterwards. We're not going to be a top SPL side anytime soon (or most likely ever) so realistically anyone who makes a good job of managing us is going to leave for a bigger club eventually. So did Connolly, so did Billy McLaren. I don't think it's something that should necessarily be held against someone ad infinitum.

I'm not saying he's the best candidate if he even is a candidate, but if the Board decide he is the best candidate then I couldn't care less how he left us last time.

Also the man who has contributed to our current poor financial state with overpaid underachievers, other fans seems to forget that

Whilst that's possibly true, he didn't sign the cheques. He spent far too much but Davie could have said "no". I wouldn't particularly blame a manager for spending money they are allowed to spend. It's far more relevant whether he actually signed good players for us or not. I would accept that's debatable. He made 51 signings for us in effect (players signed multiple times counted more than once):

1. Neil MacFarlane (Gretna)

2. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock)

3. Stephen Grindlay (Dumbarton)

4. Jamie MacDonald (Hearts)

5. David Bingham (Gretna)

6. Neil McGowan (Airdrie United)

7. Robert Harris (Clyde)

8. Brian Gilmour (Clyde)

9. Jamie Mole (Hearts)

10. David Nixon (Motherwell)

11. Ryan McCann (Bohemians)

12. John Stewart (Falkirk)

13. Robert Campbell (Kilmarnock)

14. Craig Reid (Celtic)

15. Gerry McLauchlan (Stranraer)

16. Stewart Kean (St Mirren)

17. Craig Barr (Gretna)

18. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock) Again!

19. Bryn Halliwell (Hamilton)

20. Michael McGowan (Clyde)

21. Gary Arbuckle (Clyde)

22. Cameron Bell (Kilmarnock)

23. David Weatherston (St Johnstone)

24. Tom Parratt (Hamilton Academical)

25. Craig Sives (Hearts)

26. Stephen Simmons (Dunfermline Ath)

27. Stephen Kinniburgh (Rangers)

28. Lee Robinson (Rangers)

29. Barry Wilson (Inverness CT)

30. Martyn Lancaster (Atlanta Silverbacks)

31. Ryan McCann (Morecambe) Again!

32. Halifa Soule (Amateur)

33. Derek Holmes (St Johnstone)

34. Ludovic Roy (Dundee)

35. Rocco Quinn (Hamilton Academical)

36. Willie McLaren (Clyde)

37. David Lilley (Kilmarnock)

38. Marc McAusland (St Mirren)

39. David Hutton (Clyde)

40. Stephen McKenna (Airdrie United)

41. Dennis Wyness (St Mirren)

42. Mark McGeown (Amateur)

43. Jordan McMillan (Rangers)

44. Marvin Andrews (Hamilton Academical)

45. Anthony McParland (Livingston)

46. Leon Knight (Hamilton Academical)

47. Scott Fox (Amateur)

48. Marvin Andrews (Hamilton Academical)

49. Joe Hamill (Livingston)

50. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock) Yet Again!!

Plus in effect,

51. Danny Carmichael (Gretna 2008)

I've put in bold all of those I'd consider a success. Some of the others were unlucky. I've not counted Jamie Adams as a success in any of his three spells as he hardly played due to injury. Never the less it was Chisholm's choice to take a risk on an injury prone player. Some might contend McAusland or Lancaster should be added to the success list. It's roughly about 50/50 I'd say with most of the failures being short term deals or loans. With one very obvious exception, the bigger deals didn't result in much failure.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[Homer Thompson]

Not saying that there is any need to wait to 1st June. However given the protracted manner in which the board currently operate I fancy an announcement on 1st June or later.

Given that the 1st is only a couple of days away, Id be amazed if we hear anything by then, or even on that day

I'd be relatively surprised if they were able to interview people and make a decision so quickly as to be making any announcement on June 1st. I'd like to think we'd have a new manager by some point next week though.

He did go to a bigger more ambitious club and for a significant pay rise. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that Dundee are not a bigger club than us regardless of what mess they got in afterwards. We're not going to be a top SPL side anytime soon (or most likely ever) so realistically anyone who makes a good job of managing us is going to leave for a bigger club eventually. So did Connolly, so did Billy McLaren. I don't think it's something that should necessarily be held against someone ad infinitum.

I'm not saying he's the best candidate if he even is a candidate, but if the Board decide he is the best candidate then I couldn't care less how he left us last time.

Whilst that's possibly true, he didn't sign the cheques. He spent far too much but Davie could have said "no". I wouldn't particularly blame a manager for spending money they are allowed to spend. It's far more relevant whether he actually signed good players for us or not. I would accept that's debatable. He made 51 signings for us in effect (players signed multiple times counted more than once):

1. Neil MacFarlane (Gretna)

2. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock)

3. Stephen Grindlay (Dumbarton)

4. Jamie MacDonald (Hearts)

5. David Bingham (Gretna)

6. Neil McGowan (Airdrie United)

7. Robert Harris (Clyde)

8. Brian Gilmour (Clyde)

9. Jamie Mole (Hearts)

10. David Nixon (Motherwell)

11. Ryan McCann (Bohemians)

12. John Stewart (Falkirk)

13. Robert Campbell (Kilmarnock)

14. Craig Reid (Celtic)

15. Gerry McLauchlan (Stranraer)

16. Stewart Kean (St Mirren)

17. Craig Barr (Gretna)

18. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock) – Again!

19. Bryn Halliwell (Hamilton)

20. Michael McGowan (Clyde)

21. Gary Arbuckle (Clyde)

22. Cameron Bell (Kilmarnock)

23. David Weatherston (St Johnstone)

24. Tom Parratt (Hamilton Academical)

25. Craig Sives (Hearts)

26. Stephen Simmons (Dunfermline Ath)

27. Stephen Kinniburgh (Rangers)

28. Lee Robinson (Rangers)

29. Barry Wilson (Inverness CT)

30. Martyn Lancaster (Atlanta Silverbacks)

31. Ryan McCann (Morecambe) – Again!

32. Halifa Soule (Amateur)

33. Derek Holmes (St Johnstone)

34. Ludovic Roy (Dundee)

35. Rocco Quinn (Hamilton Academical)

36. Willie McLaren (Clyde)

37. David Lilley (Kilmarnock)

38. Marc McAusland (St Mirren)

39. David Hutton (Clyde)

40. Stephen McKenna (Airdrie United)

41. Dennis Wyness (St Mirren)

42. Mark McGeown (Amateur)

43. Jordan McMillan (Rangers)

44. Marvin Andrews (Hamilton Academical)

45. Anthony McParland (Livingston)

46. Leon Knight (Hamilton Academical)

47. Scott Fox (Amateur)

48. Marvin Andrews (Hamilton Academical)

49. Joe Hamill (Livingston)

50. Jamie Adams (Kilmarnock) – Yet Again!!

Plus in effect,

51. Danny Carmichael (Gretna 2008)

I've put in bold all of those I'd consider a success. Some of the others were unlucky. I've not counted Jamie Adams as a success in any of his three spells as he hardly played due to injury. Never the less it was Chisholm's choice to take a risk on an injury prone player. Some might contend McAusland or Lancaster should be added to the success list. It's roughly about 50/50 I'd say with most of the failures being short term deals or loans. With one very obvious exception, the bigger deals didn't result in much failure.

So, 19 out of 51, including 3 loan keepers and one on a short term contract. Not a great return really

[Skyline Drifter]

So, 19 out of 51, including 3 loan keepers and one on a short term contract. Not a great return really

Like I said, you can spin it how you like. The other 32 were almost all short term contracts or loan players. In terms of players who signed for at least a year who I deemed not successes the list is:

Grindlay, N McGowan, Gilmour, McLauchlan, Kean, Barr, Halliwell, M McGowan, Arbuckle and McAusland.

Of those, some might argue that Barr and McAusland were a success (they certainly weren't out and out failures), and Arbuckle (and Barr too for that matter) was a failure due to an injury when he was looking good. Grindlay didn't actually do anything wrong per se either, he just never got a chance behind MacDonald. McLauchlan did ok too whilst the two McGowan's were never expected to be major first team contributors anyway.

The real "busts" were Gilmour, Kean and Halliwell.

[Homer Thompson]

Like I said, you can spin it how you like. The other 32 were almost all short term contracts or loan players. In terms of players who signed for at least a year who I deemed not successes the list is:

Grindlay, N McGowan, Gilmour, McLauchlan, Kean, Barr, Halliwell, M McGowan, Arbuckle and McAusland.

Of those, some might argue that Barr and McAusland were a success (they certainly weren't out and out failures), and Arbuckle (and Barr too for that matter) was a failure due to an injury when he was looking good. Grindlay didn't actually do anything wrong per se either, he just never got a chance behind MacDonald. McLauchlan did ok too whilst the two McGowan's were never expected to be major first team contributors anyway.

The real "busts" were Gilmour, Kean and Halliwell.

The problem is though that short term contracts and loan players, as you yourself pointed out, are no less expensive than any other player.

I dont blame Chisholm for any of this, but I do think it raises significant doubts as to whether or not he could do a job on a drastically reduced budget

[A-Mac]

Well that's all well and good, but the fact is we haven't got one. We can debate the rights and wrongs of that all we want, and I've said all along I think Brannigan's position should have been clarified at least a couple of months ago, but regardless of how we got here, we have to deal with the position as it is now. We'll have a manager shortly but not before contracts expire so it falls to the board to make some sort of offer to those players they feel we might want to keep.

It's not like there are any major footballing question marks over their respective abilities anyway. With the possible exception of Lilley (and I suppose whether Johnston has gone on long enough) we know they can all cut it at this level.

So everyone of the players released were out of contract already? or were they just told to move on once their contract was up?

[Skyline Drifter]

The problem is though that short term contracts and loan players, as you yourself pointed out, are no less expensive than any other player.

I dont blame Chisholm for any of this, but I do think it raises significant doubts as to whether or not he could do a job on a drastically reduced budget

They are no less expensive by and large on a week by week basis but that's hardly the same thing as committing the club to a two year contract on someone who flops (a la Kean).

I'd accept there must be a question mark about Chisholm's ability to get good enough players on far less money but no more so than anyone else really. There isn't a question mark over his ability to coach as he's got the highest coaching qualifications available.

So everyone of the players released were out of contract already? or were they just told to move on once their contract was up?

I'm not really sure what you mean? All our senior players are out of contract on Tuesday night except for McKenzie, Reid and Carmichael who have another year and Johnston and McMenamin who were out of contract a fortnight ago.

[Homer Thompson]

They are no less expensive by and large on a week by week basis but that's hardly the same thing as committing the club to a two year contract on someone who flops (a la Kean).

But then, if your contracted players dont "flop" then you dont need to bring in as many short term signings.

I'd accept there must be a question mark about Chisholm's ability to get good enough players on far less money but no more so than anyone else really. There isn't a question mark over his ability to coach as he's got the highest coaching qualifications available.

There has to be more questions marks over a manager who under achieved with a large budget than one who has proven they can work with a small budget, surely?

Edited May 30, 2011 by Mr X

[Skyline Drifter]

But then, if your contracted players dont "flop" then you dont need to bring in as many short term signings.

There has to be more questions marks over a manager who under achieved with a large budget than one who has proven they can work with a small budget, surely?

And my contention would be there really weren't many longer contracted "flops". Considering he was here nearly three seasons in charge, three significant flops wasn't really that bad.

Did he under-achieve? I'm not sure that's fair. Whatever budget he had, it was probably roughly in line with where we finished each season under him relative to the opposition (4th or 5th). I would accept the season post cup final was a little disappointing though regardless of where we finally finished. Not sure what went wrong there. More or less coincided with O'Connor getting the injury against Ross County that effectively finished him though whilst Dobbie went on a run of poor form too. We went from top to bottom end in a horrible three month run of losses. Had we not had that run we'd have been right there or thereabouts that season.

And who is a candidate for the job currently and has proven they can work with a small budget in the first division anyway? The first division is going to be a bit different next season most likely with average wages dropping significantly across the board. It is going to be easier to assemble a competitive team on a budget than it has been in past seasons. It's really a blank canvas for a manager now.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[TeeMan]

I think Chisholm might be a decent shout, whether he's a viable option I don't know. He's obviously got a reasonable working relationship with the board which after last seasons debacle would be a relief along with a decent knowledge of Scottish football. In my eyes he's a safe pair of hands in a season where the main aim is to avoid relegation, better the devil you know and all that...

[WILLIEA]

I think Chisholm might be a decent shout, whether he's a viable option I don't know. He's obviously got a reasonable working relationship with the board which after last seasons debacle would be a relief along with a decent knowledge of Scottish football. In my eyes he's a safe pair of hands in a season where the main aim is to avoid relegation, better the devil you know and all that...

Hadn't thought of it like that before but you might just be right.

[Skyline Drifter]

I think Chisholm might be a decent shout, whether he's a viable option I don't know. He's obviously got a reasonable working relationship with the board which after last seasons debacle would be a relief along with a decent knowledge of Scottish football. In my eyes he's a safe pair of hands in a season where the main aim is to avoid relegation, better the devil you know and all that...

I think there's merit in that argument.

However, much as I like him, and don't really understand where the suggestion that he didn't do well with us comes from, I'm not sure I'd want to re-appoint him. There are all sorts of reasons why you "shouldn't go back" either. I do think it's a very difficult and crucially important choice the Board have to make and make pretty quickly. I'm conscious there's a wide choice of candidates to choose from. I'm glad I don't have to make the choice.

[Homer Thompson]

And my contention would be there really weren't many longer contracted "flops". Considering he was here nearly three seasons in charge, three significant flops wasn't really that bad.

Did he under-achieve? I'm not sure that's fair. Whatever budget he had, it was probably roughly in line with where we finished each season under him relative to the opposition (4th or 5th). I would accept the season post cup final was a little disappointing though regardless of where we finally finished. Not sure what went wrong there. More or less coincided with O'Connor getting the injury against Ross County that effectively finished him though whilst Dobbie went on a run of poor form too. We went from top to bottom end in a horrible three month run of losses. Had we not had that run we'd have been right there or thereabouts that season.

And who is a candidate for the job currently and has proven they can work with a small budget in the first division anyway? The first division is going to be a bit different next season most likely with average wages dropping significantly across the board. It is going to be easier to assemble a competitive team on a budget than it has been in past seasons. It's really a blank canvas for a manager now.

I didnt say there was one. But that doesnt change the fact that a manager who only did "ok" with a large budget is less likely to do well with a reduced budget. Chisholm hasnt just managed with us in this division either. I dont think theres any doubt he under achieved at Dundee

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt be totally against Chisholm getting the job although, like you, Im always wary of people "coming back". I just think we have to be cautious when looking at his previous record with us when assessing the job he might do now. Things have changed so much and he would be working under very different circumstances

[Skyline Drifter]

I didnt say there was one. But that doesnt change the fact that a manager who only did "ok" with a large budget is less likely to do well with a reduced budget. Chisholm hasnt just managed with us in this division either. I dont think theres any doubt he under achieved at Dundee

Any manager is less likely to do well with a reduced budget than a larger one. That's true of Sir Alex Ferguson and Dario Gradi as much as of Chisholm or anyone else. The point is that suggesting he didn't win everything on a larger budget is of limited relevance and certainly the implication that as a result he would be a worse candidate than others on a limited budget is a logical leap.

Undeniably he was under-achieving at Dundee but he didn't get an enormous amount of time to fix it either and Dundee fans (the more lucid of them anyway) have tended to concede that he did generally sign good players with the odd bust (Kuqi and Charlie Grant).

Edited May 30, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[A-Mac]

I'm not really sure what you mean? All our senior players are out of contract on Tuesday night except for McKenzie, Reid and Carmichael who have another year and Johnston and McMenamin who were out of contract a fortnight ago.

I think i am getting myself confused

[Truthhurts]

I think i am getting myself confused

Aye and so are the Queens BoD.

Nae friendlies, nae players and nae manager and with all that, nae hope.