36 years, how much longer?

[10menwent2mow]

24 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Part of that is just age. Enthusiasm wanes with time to a degree, and the excitement of the day out comes and goes. The yooof will always be a bit more up for it.

But I agree in that I now struggle to justify the cost a lot of the time. I'm pretty sure the number of Hearts games (probably not number of games overall though) I'll be attending will start to drop a bit from here on.

VAR might end up being a big push away for me too. Not keen on that at all.

I think I was up for it until a few years ago. Maybe that's because we were getting to cup finals, finishing 2nd/3rd. I don't want to sound like a glory hunting of fan, but the last 10 years following the Dons were great, although I probably didn't put as much effort in as when I was in my early 20's

As for Var. Get it in the fucking bin.  

Can see me watching more Highland League if I'm not working on a Saturday than going to watch Aberdeen away. 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

That's just not true...

Half of Scotland's population live in just the 14 largest settlements listed here. 

What's striking there too, in the context of the claim that our population is spread out, is just how close together the bulk of these places are.

Only Aberdeen and Inverness are a significant distance from the others.

[jamamafegan]

I’ve said this before several times and I’ll say it again - the Scottish Premiership must have one of the piss easiest gateways to European football in Europe. It is for this reason why I’m surprised some rich c**t hasn’t decided to turn a Scottish club into their project and I honestly do wonder that this will surely happen at some point. When you consider the eye-watering level of investment in the English Championship and bottom half Premier League clubs, think about what a fraction of that money would do for a Scottish club. These English clubs spend an absolute fortune chasing the dream of getting to the Premier League, and many fail. Or you have teams like Everton spending £400 million to narrowly avoid relegation. In Scotland you could spend a few million and genuinely challenge for the Premiership. Winning it would bring the Champions League and already you’d see good returns on your shrewd (in modern footballing terms) investment. Even a second place finish would see you guaranteed into the Europa League. You wouldn’t need to spend hundreds of millions, you would just need to come a bit closer to what Rangers and Celtic are spending and it wouldn’t be long until they were dethroned. Hearts could have done it had Mad Vlad not ruined it for them. All you need is to have the money and not be a lunatic. Total piece of piss.

[stu92]

4 hours ago, virginton said:

That's just not true. The urban areas of Glasgow and Edinburgh alone account for 1.5 million people, or around 30% of the entire population of the country. The equivalent figure for the two largest settlements in England  - London and Manchester - was around 23%. (2011 figures). London's primacy in England is no greater than Greater Glasgow's demographic weight in Scotland. 

Half of Scotland's population live in just the 14 largest settlements listed here. That's a relatively high degree of population density and is certainly higher than in England, where half the population 'only' lives in the top 25 English settlements among the UK list here.  

 

Okay, all valid and true in a purely demographic sense. But in the context of reducing the number of teams in the SPFL pyramid to strengthen the fan base of other teams, which is the point I was responding to, I’m not sure it changes much. You still have clubs that are so far from anyone else (Stranraer, Elgin, etc), that if they joined the highland/lowland league you’d be hard pushed to imagine another team’s fan base benefitting. And then you have the clubs within/close to these densely populated centres (Albion Rovers, Bonnyrigg, etc) where their expulsion from the professional set-up is only likely to benefit the OF given the issues that the ‘better supported’ teams in these regions already experience.

Case in point being Motherwell as the fifth most populated region in the country while only having about 4.5k season ticket holders. This number fluctuates very little regardless of how successful or attractive the football is, and no matter how many different incentives the club offers on tickets. You could dissolve Hamilton, Airdrie and Albion Rovers to make us the only senior team in Lanarkshire, but I doubt very much we’d gain many fans and would ultimately only be reducing the number of reasons not to support Rangers or Celtic. If Morton were booted into the juniors for talking sake, do you think St Mirren would gain many fans or do you think future generations would be more drawn to the OF?

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

In Scotland you could spend a few million and genuinely challenge for the Premiership

Nah, that's simply not the case. Would need to be much, much more than a 'few million'.

[Dunfermline Don]

3 hours ago, 10menwent2mow said:

The thought of shelling out the guts of £100 for an away day to Hibs, Hearts, Dundee Utd is genuinely something that has to be considered these days, rather than just going and doing it, which would've been the case in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I'll always back my club and be a fan but as I've previously mentioned, the last time things were this bad was the early 2000's, at that point I was a naive teenager. Now approaching my 40's I'm beginning to wonder what the point is anymore. Our red shed, the Motherwell Bois, the lads at St J seem to be engaged but I do wonder if we are at a crossroads as far as the game goes. 

ETA 

I was going to go to Perth at the weekend but ScotRail wanting £45 for the train and other factors mean I'm going to go and watch Cove Vs Ayr instead. 

I am exactly the same myself.

In my younger days I would rarely miss a game home or away.

However I find it hard to get the enthusiasm and in the current financial climate the justification to spend money travelling from Fife for a game. I am however in the lucky work position that I support an autistic guy who also follows  the Dons and I get to take him to a couple of games a season. But apart from that I can’t remember when I paid to go to a league match at Pittodrie, any other recent visits have been cup games or European matches when prices have been reduced. 

This weekend I will be taking in the Kelty v Pars game as it’s only £18. 
 

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 minutes ago, Dunfermline Don said:

I am exactly the same myself.

In my younger days I would rarely miss a game home or away.

However I find it hard to get the enthusiasm and in the current financial climate the justification to spend money travelling from Fife for a game. I am however in the lucky work position that I support an autistic guy who also follows  the Dons and I get to take him to a couple of games a season. But apart from that I can’t remember when I paid to go to a league match at Pittodrie, any other recent visits have been cup games or European matches when prices have been reduced. 

This weekend I will be taking in the Kelty v Pars game as it’s only £18. 
 

Bargain!

[ahemps]

15 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

I’ve said this before several times and I’ll say it again - the Scottish Premiership must have one of the piss easiest gateways to European football in Europe. It is for this reason why I’m surprised some rich c**t hasn’t decided to turn a Scottish club into their project and I honestly do wonder that this will surely happen at some point. When you consider the eye-watering level of investment in the English Championship and bottom half Premier League clubs, think about what a fraction of that money would do for a Scottish club. These English clubs spend an absolute fortune chasing the dream of getting to the Premier League, and many fail. Or you have teams like Everton spending £400 million to narrowly avoid relegation. In Scotland you could spend a few million and genuinely challenge for the Premiership. Winning it would bring the Champions League and already you’d see good returns on your shrewd (in modern footballing terms) investment. Even a second place finish would see you guaranteed into the Europa League. You wouldn’t need to spend hundreds of millions, you would just need to come a bit closer to what Rangers and Celtic are spending and it wouldn’t be long until they were dethroned. Hearts could have done it had Mad Vlad not ruined it for them. All you need is to have the money and not be a lunatic. Total piece of piss.

It's a fair point and I'll respectfully disagree slightly. We seem to think that European cup football is the biggest draw but I don't know if it really is to the rest of the world. OF fans say this when they lose players to Southampton that they wont win anything and they wont play in Europe but the EPL is the big draw and only the CL comes close. The drop off into the Europa isn't still a big draw, for example without looking it up can you tell me the name of the 2nd tier competition in South America? Most football fans know the Copa Libertadores but what is the 2nd one and who won it last season?

Being owner of Aston Villa, an EPL team has more status than a club who wins things in a provincial league like ours. The attraction of owning and being part of the EPL trumps being the owner of Rangers or Zagreb, Olympiakos etc. A billionaire wants status so buying Hearts and winning the league in Scotland is less appealing than owning Fulham or Brentford as these teams get to play Liverpool, Man Utd, City, Chelsea etc. most weeks without the gamble of qualifying for CL groups to only get 4 games against similar sized clubs.

Also to win our league you would need over £100m to beat the OF. They pay around £50m in wages and then you'd need to buy more than 11 players around values of around £5m and that is just to be level with them, you'd need closer to £150m to put yourself as the favourite. 

I'm not saying it doesn't appeal to anyone at all but when American owners are buying Burnley, Malaysians are buying Cardiff, Indians buying Blackburn and Saudis buying Sheff Utd yet nobody without a Scottish link has even enquired about our clubs it goes to show that they are not really interested.

[vikingTON]

15 hours ago, stu92 said:

Okay, all valid and true in a purely demographic sense. But in the context of reducing the number of teams in the SPFL pyramid to strengthen the fan base of other teams, which is the point I was responding to, I’m not sure it changes much. You still have clubs that are so far from anyone else (Stranraer, Elgin, etc), that if they joined the highland/lowland league you’d be hard pushed to imagine another team’s fan base benefitting. 

I don't disagree with that, but their place within the SPFL has got nothing to do with the geographic spread of the population (Scotland's being ridiculously condensed by most standards)  and everything to do with the history of a largely closed shop setup. 

I wouldn't say that Elgin is particularly far from anywhere else, not least given that there is an entire tier just below them still exclusively made up of their counterparts in that part of the country. Elgin playing Lossiemouth wouldn't be far off Greenock Morton playing Port Glasgow on league duty. 

[btb]

Probably the same year one of the OF wins a European trophy again - congratulations to Aberdeen for being the last Scottish team to do so which makes the OF and their bigotry based financial domination of Scottish football just that little bit less special.

Edited August 17, 2022 by btb

[pozbaird]

7 minutes ago, ahemps said:

It's a fair point and I'll respectfully disagree slightly. We seem to think that European cup football is the biggest draw but I don't know if it really is to the rest of the world. OF fans say this when they lose players to Southampton that they wont win anything and they wont play in Europe but the EPL is the big draw and only the CL comes close. The drop off into the Europa isn't still a big draw, for example without looking it up can you tell me the name of the 2nd tier competition in South America? Most football fans know the Copa Libertadores but what is the 2nd one and who won it last season?

Being owner of Aston Villa, an EPL team has more status than a club who wins things in a provincial league like ours. The attraction of owning and being part of the EPL trumps being the owner of Rangers or Zagreb, Olympiakos etc. A billionaire wants status so buying Hearts and winning the league in Scotland is less appealing than owning Fulham or Brentford as these teams get to play Liverpool, Man Utd, City, Chelsea etc. most weeks without the gamble of qualifying for CL groups to only get 4 games against similar sized clubs.

Also to win our league you would need over £100m to beat the OF. They pay around £50m in wages and then you'd need to buy more than 11 players around values of around £5m and that is just to be level with them, you'd need closer to £150m to put yourself as the favourite. 

I'm not saying it doesn't appeal to anyone at all but when American owners are buying Burnley, Malaysians are buying Cardiff, Indians buying Blackburn and Saudis buying Sheff Utd yet nobody without a Scottish link has even enquired about our clubs it goes to show that they are not really interested.

^^^ This. Someone, probably a consortium, would need to be very, very rich, and a bit mental. They could buy any Scottish non ‘OF’ club with a view to an ‘easy’ path to Europe, and would need to completely overhaul an entire playing squad. To beat both OF teams, they’d need to get an entirely new squad of good players willing to sign for a Scottish diddy team, and ply their trade at Livingston away, and a trip to Ross County on a freezing cold midweek in January. The attraction and glamour of swanning around Braehead or Silverburn with their WAGs on a Sunday shouldn’t be over estimated though. Nor their five star digs in Bridge of Weir (maybe they could afford Kilmacolm).

Then, the new owners of the Scottish ‘diddy Man City’ would have a squad full of mercenaries, there for the cash. Would they share the dream of Champions League group stage football? I doubt it. To be on a par with the ‘OF’ domestically, and to reach the Champions League group stages, would likely see the new ‘Scottish diddy Newcastle United’ get to a Champions League group where they couldn’t compete with the big European boys, so they’d likely reach the group, then get pumped anyway. Unless these new mental owners of the Scottish diddy team persuaded a squad full of Kylian M’Bappe and Mo Salah types that well fired rolls wi’ square sausage and a tea fae’ Greggs are what they really need in their lives.

I can’t see it happening. Just my opinion though. I’m just heading out, so if I see Earling Haaland in Muffin Break in the Livingston Outlets munching a toffee & apple muffin with Robbie Neilson - I’ll let P&B know it could be happening. 

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, pozbaird said:

^^^ This. Someone, probably a consortium, would need to be very, very rich, and a bit mental. They could buy any Scottish non ‘OF’ club with a view to an ‘easy’ path to Europe, and would need to completely overhaul an entire playing squad. To beat both OF teams, they’d need to get an entirely new squad of good players willing to sign for a Scottish diddy team, and ply their trade at Livingston away, and a trip to Ross County on a freezing cold midweek in January. The attraction and glamour of swanning around Braehead or Silverburn with their WAGs on a Sunday shouldn’t be over estimated though. Nor their five star digs in Bridge of Weir (maybe they could afford Kilmacolm).

Then, the new owners of the Scottish ‘diddy Man City’ would have a squad full of mercenaries, there for the cash. Would they share the dream of Champions League group stage football? I doubt it. To be on a par with the ‘OF’ domestically, and to reach the Champions League group stages, would likely see the new ‘Scottish diddy Newcastle United’ get to a Champions League group where they couldn’t compete with the big European boys, so they’d likely reach the group, then get pumped anyway. Unless these new mental owners of the Scottish diddy team persuaded a squad full of Kylian M’Bappe and Mo Salah types that well fired rolls wi’ square sausage and a tea fae’ Greggs are what they really need in their lives.

I can’t see it happening. Just my opinion though. I’m just heading out, so if I see Earling Haaland in Muffin Break in the Livingston Outlets munching a toffee & apple muffin with Robbie Neilson - I’ll let P&B know it could be happening. 

Away for coffee and cake?

[jamamafegan]

^^^ This. Someone, probably a consortium, would need to be very, very rich, and a bit mental. They could buy any Scottish non ‘OF’ club with a view to an ‘easy’ path to Europe, and would need to completely overhaul an entire playing squad. To beat both OF teams, they’d need to get an entirely new squad of good players willing to sign for a Scottish diddy team, and ply their trade at Livingston away, and a trip to Ross County on a freezing cold midweek in January. The attraction and glamour of swanning around Braehead or Silverburn with their WAGs on a Sunday shouldn’t be over estimated though. Nor their five star digs in Bridge of Weir (maybe they could afford Kilmacolm).
Then, the new owners of the Scottish ‘diddy Man City’ would have a squad full of mercenaries, there for the cash. Would they share the dream of Champions League group stage football? I doubt it. To be on a par with the ‘OF’ domestically, and to reach the Champions League group stages, would likely see the new ‘Scottish diddy Newcastle United’ get to a Champions League group where they couldn’t compete with the big European boys, so they’d likely reach the group, then get pumped anyway. Unless these new mental owners of the Scottish diddy team persuaded a squad full of Kylian M’Bappe and Mo Salah types that well fired rolls wi’ square sausage and a tea fae’ Greggs are what they really need in their lives.
I can’t see it happening. Just my opinion though. I’m just heading out, so if I see Earling Haaland in Muffin Break in the Livingston Outlets munching a toffee & apple muffin with Robbie Neilson - I’ll let P&B know it could be happening. 

See, when you suggest someone buys Livingston like that then of course it sounds daft. Scotland has decent sized club in decent cities. Hearts and Hibs surely have appeal being from Edinburgh, a popular European city. You then have small teams from Glasgow like Partick and Queens Park. Dundee is a decent city but even then it’s close to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then there’s the whole playing away to Ross County thing. And? It didn’t stop players joining Anzhi in Russia who I’m sure would have had to endure more extreme conditions than you’d get in Dingwall ffs. It’s doable. Hibs, Hearts, Dundee United and Aberdeen all have the infrastructure in place. They just need the players.

[VincentGuerin]

29 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 

See, when you suggest someone buys Livingston like that then of course it sounds daft. Scotland has decent sized club in decent cities. Hearts and Hibs surely have appeal being from Edinburgh, a popular European city. You then have small teams from Glasgow like Partick and Queens Park. Dundee is a decent city but even then it’s close to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then there’s the whole playing away to Ross County thing. And? It didn’t stop players joining Anzhi in Russia who I’m sure would have had to endure more extreme conditions than you’d get in Dingwall ffs. It’s doable. Hibs, Hearts, Dundee United and Aberdeen all have the infrastructure in place. They just need the players.

 

I just think there has to be a 'why'.

Take Hearts as an example. You could probably spend Hearts into contention with great infrastructure, smart scouting, great coaches, and improved players. It could probably be done.

But why?

We might get to the CL. Maybe. But if we did, we wouldn't really be able to compete. So what's the big draw? It's a lot of money and effort and risk for someone who doesn't really give a shit about the club.

There's the possibility of a James Anderson on speed who just bankrolls his club into contention, or a Hibs fan winning Euromillions. Aberdeen already had a local couple wipe out a big chunk (all?) of their debt. These things can happen. It's just incredibly unlikely.

And is it desirable? I think not. Motherwell financially doped isn't the solution to Scottish football's problems.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I just think there has to be a 'why'.

Take Hearts as an example. You could probably spend Hearts into contention with great infrastructure, smart scouting, great coaches, and improved players. It could probably be done.

But why?

We might get to the CL. Maybe. But if we did, we wouldn't really be able to compete. So what's the big draw? It's a lot of money and effort and risk for someone who doesn't really give a shit about the club.

There's the possibility of a James Anderson on speed who just bankrolls his club into contention, or a Hibs fan winning Euromillions. Aberdeen already had a local couple wipe out a big chunk (all?) of their debt. These things can happen. It's just incredibly unlikely.

And is it desirable? I think not. Motherwell financially doped isn't the solution to Scottish football's problems.

Exactly.  It's not at all desirable.

Their fans might bleat about the use of the term, but we already have two doped clubs as far as I'm concerned.  We need to lose them, not find a new one to add.

[jamamafegan]

I just think there has to be a 'why'.
Take Hearts as an example. You could probably spend Hearts into contention with great infrastructure, smart scouting, great coaches, and improved players. It could probably be done.
But why?
We might get to the CL. Maybe. But if we did, we wouldn't really be able to compete. So what's the big draw? It's a lot of money and effort and risk for someone who doesn't really give a shit about the club.
There's the possibility of a James Anderson on speed who just bankrolls his club into contention, or a Hibs fan winning Euromillions. Aberdeen already had a local couple wipe out a big chunk (all?) of their debt. These things can happen. It's just incredibly unlikely.
And is it desirable? I think not. Motherwell financially doped isn't the solution to Scottish football's problems.

Even if Hearts got pumped in all their champions league matches they would still make a packet for simply reaching the group stages and in tv and ticket revenue.

Exactly.  It's not at all desirable.
Their fans might bleat about the use of the term, but we already have two doped clubs as far as I'm concerned.  We need to lose them, not find a new one to add.

We aren’t going to lose them. Football is a money game now. We have to join them (and the rest of European football) or be left behind. No better way to join them than actually get on a level footing with them to challenge for the league, which would instantly make our league more appealing to TV and outside investment.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

 

We aren’t going to lose them. Football is a money game now. We have to join them (and the rest of European football) or be left behind. No better way to join them than actually get on a level footing with them to challenge for the league, which would instantly make our league more appealing to TV and outside investment.

 

I could not agree less.

Yes, I'd enjoy seeing OF fans grumbling about the injustice if someone else rocked up with resources to match or outstrip theirs and yes, I was pleased when the basket case that was Hearts pipped Rangers to second a while back.

However, my chief objections to the OF are to do with the scale of their advantages.  Having another club permanently join them would just give me something additional to dislike.  

You don't get revolution by simply enlarging the elite slightly.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[pozbaird]

3 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

 

See, when you suggest someone buys Livingston like that then of course it sounds daft. Scotland has decent sized club in decent cities. Hearts and Hibs surely have appeal being from Edinburgh, a popular European city. You then have small teams from Glasgow like Partick and Queens Park. Dundee is a decent city but even then it’s close to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then there’s the whole playing away to Ross County thing. And? It didn’t stop players joining Anzhi in Russia who I’m sure would have had to endure more extreme conditions than you’d get in Dingwall ffs. It’s doable. Hibs, Hearts, Dundee United and Aberdeen all have the infrastructure in place. They just need the players.

 

If a foreign consortium or individual wanted a Scottish club because of this ‘easy’ path to the Champions League, where were they hiding when Oldco were sold for a quid?

[pozbaird]

5 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

Away for coffee and cake?

Aye - with Earling Haaland and David Martindale sitting in the corner with a shady looking Arab bloke.

[Jacksgranda]

39 minutes ago, pozbaird said:

Aye - with Earling Haaland and David Martindale sitting in the corner with a shady looking Arab bloke.

It'll be in the Record tomorrow...