Ben Doak

[ArabFC]

9 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

I somewhat agree with Londonwell in that his final ball has been a bit disappointing in most of the games I have seen him play. Having said that, watching him play at a lower level (Scotland unders in particular) his selection of final ball was much better and not because he was in less stressed situations. I don't know if his poor outcomes lately are because he is playing at a higher level (although pre-season), he hasn't yet got the experience to consistently get final ball selection right or because he needs to further develop his technique. If its a question of experience then of course game inclusion is a really big part of development for him and we should see rapid improvement through the season if he gets it. If it's technique then we might be waiting a good few years before he really starts to break through.

Not a chance in hell.

It's not technique.

He's just breaking into their team (at 17). Getting used to the runs your teammates make and where they want the ball will come quickly enough. 

[2426255]

7 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Not a chance in hell.

It's not technique.

He's just breaking into their team (at 17). Getting used to the runs your teammates make and where they want the ball will come quickly enough. 

Oh dear, we have a fanboy. It' probably his Liverpool team mates that are the problem and not Doak. He is making the right passes but Salah and Jota really aren't making the right runs or taking up the right positions. 

In all seriousness, Doak didn't join the Senior National Team for the Spanish pre camp back in June. Conway, Fiorini and King were the players from the 21's. It's also only pre-season so I'm not making any judgements or boarding the hype train personally.

Edited August 8, 2023 by 2426255

[Tartan Blood]

23 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

I somewhat agree with Londonwell in that his final ball has been a bit disappointing in most of the games I have seen him play. Having said that, watching him play at a lower level (Scotland unders in particular) his selection of final ball was much better and not because he was in less stressed situations. I don't know if his poor outcomes lately are because he is playing at a higher level (although pre-season), he hasn't yet got the experience to consistently get final ball selection right or because he needs to further develop his technique. If its a question of experience then of course game inclusion is a really big part of development for him and we should see rapid improvement through the season if he gets it. If it's technique then we might be waiting a good few years before he really starts to break through.

I really don't think technique or ability is the issue. As you say, he has already demonstrated that at lower levels. It's clearly a lack of experience, probably as well as knowing the cameras are on him. He'll get over that. Especially if Liverpool employ sports psychologists, which I assume they do.

Very few of the best players in the world made good decisions when they were 17. I seem to recall Cristiano was criticised a lot for that when he first signed for Man U. I genuinely think he's going to have made a significant impact for Scotland before he is 19. What a weapon he will be as a sub, initially.

[Tartan Blood]

3 hours ago, Elgin Macca said:

What do we think Doak would need to do at the start of the season to force his way into the Scotland squad? Start for Liverpool? Sub appearances? just be in the matchday squads? I know Clarke isn't one to make changes just for the sake of it but I really think this kid would give us something totally difference. His pace is frightening. Away to Cyprus then a friendly seems the perfect time to get him involved in my opinion. 

Based on the fact he wasn't one of the players called up from the u21s in June, probably means he isn't quite on the verge of a call up. September will almost certainly be too soon.

Beyond that, I'd say 3 or 4 sub appearances in the EPL and some starts in cup competitions should be more than enough to get into the squad. Gilmour and Patterson hadn't done much more than that when they got called up.

[2426255]

20 minutes ago, Tartan Blood said:

September will almost certainly be too soon.

Also worth remembering that between the start of Liverpool's season (Aug-13) and the first international break (Sep-8) Liverpool have only four games, all in the EPL.

Liverpool are in Europe so won't play a League Cup match until Sep-26 and they are in the Europa League Group Stages so won't play in that until Sep-21. With quite a relaxed schedule it doesn't provide a huge amount of competitive games to impress or a taxing schedule for their senior players with respect to player rotation.

If Ben Doak can play up to 90 minutes or across those four games I'd say that's good. If he is doing better than that then I'd understand calls for him to be involved for Scotland.

Edited August 8, 2023 by 2426255

[Pie Of The Month]

It'll be interesting to see if Doak gets into the Liverpool Europa League squad. He doesn't qualify as home grown or one of the u21 players since he hasn't been there long enough so has to be registered as one of the 17 non-home grown or underage players the same as the likes of Robertson and Salah.

 

[accies1874]

1 hour ago, albagubrath said:

 If it's technique then we might be waiting a good few years before he really starts to break through.

I think it might be a technical issue at the moment. While he's regularly contributed with goals and creating chances at youth level, he hasn't yet looked like a reliable ball-striker at any level. 

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

 

In all seriousness, Doak didn't join the Senior National Team for the Spanish pre camp back in June. Conway, Fiorini and King were the players from the 21's. It's also only pre-season so I'm not making any judgements or boarding the hype train personally.

Did Doak not withdraw from the u21s? I thought it was strange that he didn't get called up with those guys, but I'm not sure if that was before or after he called off. 

[2426255]

51 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

I think it might be a technical issue at the moment. While he's regularly contributed with goals and creating chances at youth level, he hasn't yet looked like a reliable ball-striker at any level. 

Did Doak not withdraw from the u21s? I thought it was strange that he didn't get called up with those guys, but I'm not sure if that was before or after he called off. 

As I understand it, he called off from the u-21's so he could rest and prepare for the new season with Liverpool. That was on Jun-13 - the week after the Spanish training camp.

The motivations etc are open to speculation, so you can draw your own conclusions, but it's my opinion that if Steve Clarke had called Doak up he'd not have turned that chance down to optimise for Liverpool's new season.

That's a leap, but if true would point to Steve Clarke choosing not to call him up for whatever reason where we re-enter the world of speculation.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by 2426255

[Bing.McCrosby]

4 hours ago, Tartan Blood said:

Based on the fact he wasn't one of the players called up from the u21s in June, probably means he isn't quite on the verge of a call up. September will almost certainly be too soon.

Beyond that, I'd say 3 or 4 sub appearances in the EPL and some starts in cup competitions should be more than enough to get into the squad. Gilmour and Patterson hadn't done much more than that when they got called up.

Thing can change fast in football, Liverpool will have 3 competitive games by then. If hes getting on the pitch for Liverpool and doing well id say its possible he could be in the squad.

[archieduke]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

As I understand it, he called off from the u-21's so he could rest and prepare for the new season with Liverpool. That was on Jun-13 - the week after the Spanish training camp.

The motivations etc are open to speculation, so you can draw your own conclusions, but it's my opinion that if Steve Clarke had called Doak up he'd not have turned that chance down to optimise for Liverpool's new season.

That's a leap, but if true would point to Steve Clarke choosing not to call him up for whatever reason where we re-enter the world of speculation.

Let's be honest, when Scott Gemmill is the manager of the Under-21s I'm just surprised there hasn't been more mass withdrawals from the squad.

[2426255]

Steve Clarke discussed Ben Doak prior to the June pre-camp which clarifies that he made a choice not to select Ben Doak to train with the Senior boys. Whether there has been enough improvement since then only time will tell. Given the small number of games Liverpool have before the international break (4) he'll not have many competitive games to show he's good enough to be involved.  

Quote

Doak is similar. He’s an attacker and probably a really difficult player to play against. Because he just runs. He’s so quick and he can go either way. You could probably play him as a striker, just ask him to run in behind teams and stretch them. Again, at 17 he’s just a youngster, but he’s been in and around the Liverpool first team without making the breakthrough. That’s not a criticism because it’s difficult to do at a club like that. Hopefully going forward those two boys can be a big part of our future.

Let’s not put too much pressure on them, but if someone is playing regularly somewhere and scoring goals - they can be in Scotland’s first-team squad. I don’t think Ben is quite at that level yet but he’s working towards it. If he shows he’s good enough to be involved, he can be, for sure.

Steve Clarke, 4/6/2023
 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/scotland-boss-clarke-names-talented-30145631

[PSJ.84]

Hard to disagree with anything Clarke says there. His time will come. 

[Self-raising Lazarus]

9 hours ago, PSJ.84 said:

Hard to disagree with anything Clarke says there. His time will come. 

Agree, the difference now is we have a manger who will actually call up youngsters if they deserve it, as opposed to waiting for them to be in their mid 20s before getting capped. 

[Crow]

On 08/08/2023 at 11:32, ArabFC said:

Not a chance in hell.

It's not technique.

He's just breaking into their team (at 17). Getting used to the runs your teammates make and where they want the ball will come quickly enough. 

He’s had a very good pre-season featuring in all 5 games and just like you say very much getting used to the players around him. Going to be tough with 5 top class forwards in front of him and Salah pretty much an ever present in his position on the right but he’s pushing hard. 

[Tartan Blood]

On 08/08/2023 at 16:39, Bing.McCrosby said:

Thing can change fast in football, Liverpool will have 3 competitive games by then. If hes getting on the pitch for Liverpool and doing well id say its possible he could be in the squad.

Yeah, being reguarly subbed on for a team like Liverpool is impressive at any age. You could argue that shows a higher level than getting in the first 11 for a team like Luton or Sheffield Utd. (Jacob Brown, McBurnie, Fleck)

Obviously you can't underestimate the value of playing 90mins every week, but, at 17, making cameos for Liverpool and training with world class players is far more beneficial than going on loan to a lower level. Especially having Salah as your mentor and the Scotland captain there to keep you grounded.

[Bing.McCrosby]

20 minutes ago, Tartan Blood said:

Yeah, being reguarly subbed on for a team like Liverpool is impressive at any age. You could argue that shows a higher level than getting in the first 11 for a team like Luton or Sheffield Utd. (Jacob Brown, McBurnie, Fleck)

Obviously you can't underestimate the value of playing 90mins every week, but, at 17, making cameos for Liverpool and training with world class players is far more beneficial than going on loan to a lower level. Especially having Salah as your mentor and the Scotland captain there to keep you grounded.

If he can carry that into the competitive games then yeah I think so.

Think its also a bit of a wild take reading earlier (not you) that clarke would give him a chance where previous managers wouldn't. Have we had anyone comparable in the last 30 years? A 17 year old on the cusp of a big team roasting the likes of bayern? Not that I can think of.

 

[Molotov]

Please tell me there is no danger of him being called up by another country through FIFA grandparent rules?

This young lad could become an international superstar! 

 

[2426255]

1 minute ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Think its also a bit of a wild take reading earlier (not you) that clarke would give him a chance where previous managers wouldn't 

I agree. In my opinion an increase in the quantity of quality young Scottish players is the determining factor rather than who the manager is.

Clarke still gets credit in my book for how he's integrating them and managed the younger players and difficulties that one or two have encountered.

[Self-raising Lazarus]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I agree. In my opinion an increase in the quantity of quality young Scottish players is the determining factor rather than who the manager is.

Clarke still gets credit in my book for how he's integrating them and managed the younger players and difficulties that one or two have encountered.

 

2 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

If he can carry that into the competitive games then yeah I think so.

Think its also a bit of a wild take reading earlier (not you) that clarke would give him a chance where previous managers wouldn't. Have we had anyone comparable in the last 30 years? A 17 year old on the cusp of a big team roasting the likes of bayern? Not that I can think of.

 

Strachan starting Craig forsyth for his one and only cap in Dublin instead of trusting roberston springs to mind. So I would argue previous managers would be much more hesitant than Clarke has.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Self-raising Lazarus said:

 

Strachan starting Craig forsyth for his one and only cap in Dublin instead of trusting roberston springs to mind. So I would argue previous managers would be much more hesitant than Clarke has.

Strachan also gave plenty of young players their debut. Bringing in a young John Mcginn while he was playing in the championship springs to mind.

But fair enough thats your opinion, I just don't see either example yours or mine really proving anything one way or the other.

If there's a guy getting a game for Liverpool I'd say he's going to be considered regardless of his age, or who the manager is.