Ben Doak

[2426255]

42 minutes ago, Captain_Sensible said:

Indeed, Clarke tends to play with a forward who isn’t an out and out striker alongside the main striker, sometimes 2 such players.

I remember listening to a podcast where the panelist stated after the Norway game that John McGinn was more of a threat than any of our recognised strikers so he was the most logical choice to fill that role. 

I think putting players in boxes in terms of position and starting formation leads to the kind of idea @eez-eh proposed which misses the detail. It's not out of the box thinking to play John McGinn in the role of a striker, it's simple and logical.

Edited August 15, 2023 by 2426255

[invergowrie arab]

I'd be capping him against England and/or France for no other reason than when small to middling European teams have their moment in the sun they tend to have a nucleus of players on a good wheen of caps.

You can't tell the future but if you think someone has a future have them getting thrown into big moments with 10 caps rather than 2.

 

[Tartan Blood]

5 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

I'd be capping him against England and/or France for no other reason than when small to middling European teams have their moment in the sun they tend to have a nucleus of players on a good wheen of caps.

You can't tell the future but if you think someone has a future have them getting thrown into big moments with 10 caps rather than 2.

 

Totally agree. Sometimes you can just tell that it is inevitable someone will become an international. Obviously we've had plenty of false messiahs before. (Oli Burke, Ryan Gauld) But look at Billy Gilmour - 21 years old and already has 18 caps. I can't imagine there are too many other Scots in our history that racked up that many caps by that age. It'll do him the world of good.

It would be great if we took Doak to the Euros next year and have him sitting on 6 or 7  caps already. Even if most of those caps are from the bench, it'll still be valuable. He'll be 18 by then and be primed for a big tournament.

I'm sure Clarke is not oblivious to the hype surrounding him.

[Captain_Sensible]

It’s actually incredible than any Scotland fan would put up any sort of argument to exclude Doak from *just the squad*
 

It’s lunacy in the extreme. If he doesn’t turn out to be a superstar then there’s absolutely no harm done. If he does, then those who don’t want him called up will look like total lunatics  

He’s good enough for Klopp but not @Jives Miguel

Hilarious 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Captain_Sensible

[Jives Miguel]

14 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

It’s actually incredible than any Scotland fan would put up any sort of argument to exclude Doak from *just the squad*
 

It’s lunacy in the extreme. If he doesn’t turn out to be a superstar then there’s absolutely no harm done. If he does, then those who don’t want him called up will look like total lunatics  

He’s good enough for Klopp but not @Jives Miguel

Hilarious 

 

What is it about young Scottish players that causes people to completely lose the head?

The only lunatic here are the ones pushing for a 17 year old with 108 minutes in their entire career called up to the Scotland squad, for no other reason than that they play for Liverpool. I bet you've never even seen the boy play. I think I've seen every minute of competitive football he's played for Liverpool, unlike yourself, and there are no performance based reasons why he should be called up at the moment, all the claims for him being called up are on hype and hype alone. What benefit does it give Doak exactly? You really think sitting on the bench against Cyprus is going to be the difference between him making it and not making?

 

And the "iF hE's GoOd eNoUgH fOr LiVeRpOoL..." is the most room temperature IQ take I've seen on here in a while(which is some going given the utter brainlets that post on this sub-forum). Do you think if he was 27 instead of 17, he'd he anywhere close to the Liverpool team, at current level of ability? The main reason he's seeing minutes is because he's a very promising young player who needs gametime to develop further. Clubs hand gametime like this out to players out the academy constantly. It doesn't automatically mean they're already good enough to play at that level, or will develop into a star. A lot of them turn out to be complete frauds actually. How many of these players do you recognise:

Matthew Briggs
Izzy Brown
Jose Baxter
Rushian Hepburn-Murphy
Reece Oxford
James Vaughan
Mark Platts
Antwoine Hackford
Dane Scarlett
Jonathan Leko
Andy Campbell
 

All of them 16 year olds who played in the Premier League who turned out to be shitters. Not that I expect Doak to do likewise, but your point is pathetically stupid.

[2426255]

58 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

 

What is it about young Scottish players that causes people to completely lose the head?

The only lunatic here are the ones pushing for a 17 year old with 108 minutes in their entire career called up to the Scotland squad, for no other reason than that they play for Liverpool. I bet you've never even seen the boy play. I think I've seen every minute of competitive football he's played for Liverpool, unlike yourself, and there are no performance based reasons why he should be called up at the moment, all the claims for him being called up are on hype and hype alone. What benefit does it give Doak exactly? You really think sitting on the bench against Cyprus is going to be the difference between him making it and not making?

 

And the "iF hE's GoOd eNoUgH fOr LiVeRpOoL..." is the most room temperature IQ take I've seen on here in a while(which is some going given the utter brainlets that post on this sub-forum). Do you think if he was 27 instead of 17, he'd he anywhere close to the Liverpool team, at current level of ability? The main reason he's seeing minutes is because he's a very promising young player who needs gametime to develop further. Clubs hand gametime like this out to players out the academy constantly. It doesn't automatically mean they're already good enough to play at that level, or will develop into a star. A lot of them turn out to be complete frauds actually. How many of these players do you recognise:

Matthew Briggs
Izzy Brown
Jose Baxter
Rushian Hepburn-Murphy
Reece Oxford
James Vaughan
Mark Platts
Antwoine Hackford
Dane Scarlett
Jonathan Leko
Andy Campbell
 

All of them 16 year olds who played in the Premier League who turned out to be shitters. Not that I expect Doak to do likewise, but your point is pathetically stupid.

Good points, well made. The hype around young players is unfortunate, we've seen before how overhyping can be harmful (Gilmour being a good recent example) and the sad truth is most fans won't have seen much of him.

It's not just Scottish players, I remember Man Utd fans going on and on about putting 19 y/o Zidane Iqbal in the United team at the beginning of last season. That never happened and he now plays for Utrecht.

There's very much a giddy, kids at christmas feel to conversations around hyped young players so it's easy to identify. While there is a sensible discussion to have around Doak, at the moment the discussions around are very much the former IMO. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by 2426255

[Old Bing]

43 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

 

What is it about young Scottish players that causes people to completely lose the head?

The only lunatic here are the ones pushing for a 17 year old with 108 minutes in their entire career called up to the Scotland squad, for no other reason than that they play for Liverpool. I bet you've never even seen the boy play. I think I've seen every minute of competitive football he's played for Liverpool, unlike yourself, and there are no performance based reasons why he should be called up at the moment, all the claims for him being called up are on hype and hype alone. What benefit does it give Doak exactly? You really think sitting on the bench against Cyprus is going to be the difference between him making it and not making?

 

And the "iF hE's GoOd eNoUgH fOr LiVeRpOoL..." is the most room temperature IQ take I've seen on here in a while(which is some going given the utter brainlets that post on this sub-forum). Do you think if he was 27 instead of 17, he'd he anywhere close to the Liverpool team, at current level of ability? The main reason he's seeing minutes is because he's a very promising young player who needs gametime to develop further. Clubs hand gametime like this out to players out the academy constantly. It doesn't automatically mean they're already good enough to play at that level, or will develop into a star. A lot of them turn out to be complete frauds actually. How many of these players do you recognise:

Matthew Briggs
Izzy Brown
Jose Baxter
Rushian Hepburn-Murphy
Reece Oxford
James Vaughan
Mark Platts
Antwoine Hackford
Dane Scarlett
Jonathan Leko
Andy Campbell
 

All of them 16 year olds who played in the Premier League who turned out to be shitters. Not that I expect Doak to do likewise, but your point is pathetically stupid.

Oh my god, you've actually seen him play? Wow

Im out, cant argue this anymore, this guys seen him play. I mean he's playing for Liverpool so that must have been incredibly difficult as their games are literally never broadcasted. So hats off for the incredible scouting.

[No_Problemo]

52 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

 

What is it about young Scottish players that causes people to completely lose the head?

The only lunatic here are the ones pushing for a 17 year old with 108 minutes in their entire career called up to the Scotland squad, for no other reason than that they play for Liverpool. I bet you've never even seen the boy play. I think I've seen every minute of competitive football he's played for Liverpool, unlike yourself, and there are no performance based reasons why he should be called up at the moment, all the claims for him being called up are on hype and hype alone. What benefit does it give Doak exactly? You really think sitting on the bench against Cyprus is going to be the difference between him making it and not making?

 

And the "iF hE's GoOd eNoUgH fOr LiVeRpOoL..." is the most room temperature IQ take I've seen on here in a while(which is some going given the utter brainlets that post on this sub-forum). Do you think if he was 27 instead of 17, he'd he anywhere close to the Liverpool team, at current level of ability? The main reason he's seeing minutes is because he's a very promising young player who needs gametime to develop further. Clubs hand gametime like this out to players out the academy constantly. It doesn't automatically mean they're already good enough to play at that level, or will develop into a star. A lot of them turn out to be complete frauds actually. How many of these players do you recognise:

Matthew Briggs
Izzy Brown
Jose Baxter
Rushian Hepburn-Murphy
Reece Oxford
James Vaughan
Mark Platts
Antwoine Hackford
Dane Scarlett
Jonathan Leko
Andy Campbell
 

All of them 16 year olds who played in the Premier League who turned out to be shitters. Not that I expect Doak to do likewise, but your point is pathetically stupid.

It just isn’t true to suggest that the only reason people are asking for him to be called up is hype alone. 

You are completely entitled to your viewpoint that you feel isn’t ready, but like you I have watched all of Doak’s competitive minutes and a lot of his stuff in pre season. He is absolutely able to offer us something against the likes of Cyprus and his pace and directness is something that we just don’t have in our squad. 

What benefit does Doak get? Of course spending time with the first team squad is going to benefit him, different tactics, different ways of working and playing with/against different players are all good things for a young player. That’s not even taking into account the benefits in terms of his Scotland career. 

I would have him in the squad, but I’m not hugely bothered - it’s definitely not lunacy to suggest that he should be. I think the upcoming squad will be too early for him, but if he continues to get game time it won’t be long anyway. 

Clubs also don’t routinely hand out minutes to seventeen years olds during a tight game against another side competing for top four either btw. Particularly when the young players replaces their best player.

Edited August 16, 2023 by No_Problemo

[2426255]

15 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

It just isn’t true to suggest that the only reason people are asking for him to be called up is hype alone. 

You are completely entitled to your viewpoint that you feel isn’t ready, but like you I have watched all of Doak’s competitive minutes and a lot of his stuff in pre season. He is absolutely able to offer us something against the likes of Cyprus and his pace and directness is something that we just don’t have in our squad. 

What benefit does Doak get? Of course spending time with the first team squad is going to benefit him, different tactics, different ways of working and playing with/against different players are all good things for a young player. That’s not even taking into account the benefits in terms of his Scotland career. 

I would have him in the squad, but I’m not hugely bothered - it’s definitely not lunacy to suggest that he should be. I think the upcoming squad will be too early for him, but if he continues to get game time it won’t be long anyway. 

Clubs also don’t routinely hand out minutes to seventeen years olds during a tight game against another side competing for top four either btw. Particularly when the young players replaces their best player.

Fair points - don't disagree with them, but it's my view that the hype/wonderkid component is the main driver in the conversation surrounding Doak on this forum and no doubt amongst Liverpool fans and in time the Scottish media.

[No_Problemo]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

Fair points - don't disagree with them, but it's my view that the hype/wonderkid component is the main driver in the conversation surrounding Doak on this forum and no doubt amongst Liverpool fans and in time the Scottish media.

It’ll definitely be part of it, and I can see where you are coming from. He didn’t get much of a chance to impact things against Chelsea, but still had a couple of nice moments - I’m just fascinated to see how he does if he continues to her t game time tbh. 

His potential is scary high though!

I’m sure Clarke will have conversations with Klopp and Robertson around Doak - I’m pretty sure it’ll be a group decision in terms of what is best for his development at the moment. Ultimately it might be argued that adding an international call up might be too much right now, and he is better continuing to learn his role at Liverpool during the break. 

[Jives Miguel]

7 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Oh my god, you've actually seen him play? Wow

Im out, cant argue this anymore, this guys seen him play. I mean he's playing for Liverpool so that must have been incredibly difficult as their games are literally never broadcasted. So hats off for the incredible scouting.

You're a really strange wee man, aren't you?

 

6 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

It just isn’t true to suggest that the only reason people are asking for him to be called up is hype alone. 

You are completely entitled to your viewpoint that you feel isn’t ready, but like you I have watched all of Doak’s competitive minutes and a lot of his stuff in pre season. He is absolutely able to offer us something against the likes of Cyprus and his pace and directness is something that we just don’t have in our squad. 

What benefit does Doak get? Of course spending time with the first team squad is going to benefit him, different tactics, different ways of working and playing with/against different players are all good things for a young player. That’s not even taking into account the benefits in terms of his Scotland career. 

I would have him in the squad, but I’m not hugely bothered - it’s definitely not lunacy to suggest that he should be. I think the upcoming squad will be too early for him, but if he continues to get game time it won’t be long anyway. 

Clubs also don’t routinely hand out minutes to seventeen years olds during a tight game against another side competing for top four either btw. Particularly when the young players replaces their best player.

I think you're grasping at straws a bit if you think a few days training with lesser players and lesser coaches than at his club side will have any tangible effect on Doak.

The last point is not really correct. Off the top of my head I can remember Jon Flanagan and Alexander-Arnold making their first PL starts for Liverpool against top 4 teams at similar ages. And Klopp hands out sub appearances like sweeties in these games to young players. From looking at various websites I can tell you he's played TAA, Bajcetic, Doak, Harvey Elliot, Joe Gomez, Sheyi Ojo, Ojie Evaria, Neco Williams, Rhys Williams, Jordon Ibe, Fabio Carvalho, Solanke, Tyler Morton, Marko Grujic in those games.

[No_Problemo]

52 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

You're a really strange wee man, aren't you?

 

I think you're grasping at straws a bit if you think a few days training with lesser players and lesser coaches than at his club side will have any tangible effect on Doak.

The last point is not really correct. Off the top of my head I can remember Jon Flanagan and Alexander-Arnold making their first PL starts for Liverpool against top 4 teams at similar ages. And Klopp hands out sub appearances like sweeties in these games to young players. From looking at various websites I can tell you he's played TAA, Bajcetic, Doak, Harvey Elliot, Joe Gomez, Sheyi Ojo, Ojie Evaria, Neco Williams, Rhys Williams, Jordon Ibe, Fabio Carvalho, Solanke, Tyler Morton, Marko Grujic in those games.

I think it’ll benefit his international career, and training against excellent defensive full backs like Tierney isn’t exactly going to be a bad thing. 

Did they start over or replace a world class player with a game in the balance, if not it isn’t comparable.  

You are clearly incapable of seeing any form of middle ground in terms of this. 

[Brother Blades]

Like most people on here, I’m excited at the potential of Doak, looks like he could be truly world class if he stays on the same trajectory. But, also like MOST people, I’m not that fussed that he be called up in the next squad.

What I can’t see though, is any downside if he is called up, there is none IMO, settling in with a group of players & management team is very important, especially in someone so young, it can’t possibly do him any harm, and the the further he is kept away from Scotland Gemmell the better. 

[Jives Miguel]

26 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

I think it’ll benefit his international career, and training against excellent defensive full backs like Tierney isn’t exactly going to be a bad thing. 

Did they start over or replace a world class player with a game in the balance, if not it isn’t comparable.  

You are clearly incapable of seeing any form of middle ground in terms of this. 

Why will it benefit his international career exactly? Again, you could probably name as many 17-18 year olds capped that went onto be frauds than those didn't. How did getting capped at that age benefit Alen Halilovic, Ben Woodburn, Johan Volanthen, Bojan, Freddy Adu and so on. Players probably spend 150+ days of year training with their club. the 3 days with the national team will be negligible with regards to Doak's development

Well yes, the entire Liverpool first team is usually world class. Sounds like you think its not comparable because it just completely proves your statement wrong. 

 

[No_Problemo]

4 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

Why will it benefit his international career exactly? Again, you could probably name as many 17-18 year olds capped that went onto be frauds than those didn't. How did getting capped at that age benefit Alen Halilovic, Ben Woodburn, Johan Volanthen, Bojan, Freddy Adu and so on. Players probably spend 150+ days of year training with their club. the 3 days with the national team will be negligible with regards to Doak's development

Well yes, the entire Liverpool first team is usually world class. Sounds like you think its not comparable because it just completely proves your statement wrong. 

 

Why did Clarke involve Fiorini, King and Conway in the last camp? For a laugh…

You are now genuinely trying to argue that every single youth player that has played for Liverpool in recent years, replaced someone who was world class like Salah. And no the entire Liverpool first team is not world class. 

Utterly moronic. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by No_Problemo

[Molotov]

Ben Doak is gonna be very important to our national side. 
Get him involved in the squad. Even if it’s just carrying the kit into the dressing room. 

Denis Law was 18 when he made his Scotland debut and he played for an English 2nd division side. 

There is absolutely no reason not to bring Doak into the squad for the next few months to gain experience.

He could become a sensation at Liverpool this season - especially if Salah signs for the Saudis after the EPL transfer window shuts.  

 

[2426255]

39 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

What I can’t see though, is any downside if he is called up, there is none IMO, settling in with a group of players & management team is very important, especially in someone so young, it can’t possibly do him any harm.

I think potentially you could look at it as a trade off. The opportunity cost of coming away with Scotland is what he might miss with Liverpool. A good example is Lewis Ferguson who was given time to remain with Bologna during the International break in September 2022 to help him with his club career.

It has generally been accepted as a good decision by the player, the manager and most fans from what I've seen in that specific case. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by 2426255

[Jives Miguel]

24 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Why did Clarke involve Fiorini, King and Conway in the last camp? For a laugh…

You are now genuinely trying to argue that every single youth player that has played for Liverpool in recent years, replaced someone who was world class like Salah. And no the entire Liverpool first team is not world class. 

Utterly moronic. 

 

Why did Steve Clarke call up a player with 38x more, 11.5x more and 22.7x more time spent on a competitive professional football pitch than Ben Doak? Google is your friend

"It’s great to have them. I’ve always wanted to show that there is a pathway from the Under-21 squad to the senior squad. With the numbers we’ve got here this week, it was nice to give the three of them the opportunity to join up and show us what they can do. You never know. One of them might do fantastically well and we’ll need them for next week. There’s always that chance. It’s good for them, good for their experience and they’re happy to be here and be part of the senior squad. If they have to drop down to Scot Gemmill’s squad for their games, they’ll be in good shape."

 

I'm telling you that contrary to what you stated Liverpool in particular(without me needing to expand the search into any of the other big 6) do in fact very often give youngsters match experience in Premier League games against other teams fighting for top 4. 

It's very funny to me that you would accuse me of not being able to see nuance or back down from a hill, then when things you've said are proven wrong, nudge the goalposts, add on caveats and abuse me.  

 

[TeeMan]

The get together in June was also part of an extended post-season training camp this will be for three days where we have to prep for an important qualifier in Cyprus.

I think I'd wait and see until the fixtures in October and let him get a bit more first team experience. Maybe minutes at the end of the France friendly?

[Old Bing]

On 14/08/2023 at 16:30, Jives Miguel said:

It's absolutely insane behaviour wanting a 17 year old with 30 mins of senior competitive football called into the squad.

 

4 hours ago, Jives Miguel said:

The only lunatic here are the ones pushing for a 17 year old with 108 minutes in their entire career called up to the Scotland squad, for no other reason than that they play for Liverpool. I bet you've never even seen the boy play. I think I've seen every minute of competitive football he's played for Liverpool

Its weird tho you've watched every minute but disagree with yourself as to how many minutes it is