The Christian Theology Education Thread

[Mr. Brightside]

Funny that my "non-denominational" school still sang hymns and got us to "pray".

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

It shouldn’t be an option, certainly not a state funded one.  Schools should be free of religious influence, if parents want to brainwash their kids they should do it outwith and separate from the educational system.

The schools being state funded means they have to teach the national curriculum which is surely preferable to rogue outfits teaching any old nonsense they choose to.

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

If you want to ignore the influence that unrepresentative religious groups have in both the U.K. and Scotland go ahead.  I’m pretty sure we’d already have assisted suicide in this country, or at the very least a sensible pragmatic debate about it, if it weren’t for the influence of god botherers.

I'm not ignoring it, there's plenty of unrepresentative groups with outsized influence in our democracy. The power of the Church and faith groups are on the wane though, unlike others.

We'd have assisted suicide in this country if a majority of MSPs had voted for it in 2015. The majority voted against it, including the SNP government and both its current and former leader. Another bill has been proposed which will be debated in our Parliament, so the idea that there hasn't been any sensible or pragmatic debate on the issue is nonsense as is the assertion that the 'God botherers' influence is preventing this, or that they are the only group opposed to it.

[Boo Khaki]

Jesus. Do they still have CoS ministers prattling away at bairns in school assemblies, and twinset auld biddies battering away at pianos while the kids sing hymns?

I'm not a parent so I don't have a clue what goes on in state comps these days, but I thought it was outdated, offensive nonsense when they subjected me to it in the 70's and 80's, so I'd be astonished if it's still exactly the same.

[Granny Danger]

49 minutes ago, Herc said:

The schools being state funded means they have to teach the national curriculum which is surely preferable to rogue outfits teaching any old nonsense they choose to.

 

You say that as if it’s a binary option; it’s not.  The government could set the parameters for education in all schools regardless of funding.  Personally I would have nothing other than state funded schools with no religious indoctrination; discussion on religion being limited to theoretical comparisons.

1 hour ago, Mr. Brightside said:

Funny that my "non-denominational" school still sang hymns and got us to "pray".

 

37 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Jesus. Do they still have CoS ministers prattling away at bairns in school assemblies, and twinset auld biddies battering away at pianos while the kids sing hymns?

I'm not a parent so I don't have a clue what goes on in state comps these days, but I thought it was outdated, offensive nonsense when they subjected me to it in the 70's and 80's, so I'd be astonished if it's still exactly the same.

Aye but apparently religion is not ‘all-pervasive’.

[CTQP1867]

4 hours ago, Herc said:

No 'we' don't. Parents have the option of sending their child to a faith school, whether that's RC, Jewish, Episcopalian or inter-denominational.

For the record, how many Jewish, Episcopalian or “inter-denominational” schools are there? 
And why isn’t there an option for Muslims or Buddhists? Or atheists for that matter?

[Salt n Vinegar]

3 hours ago, Mr. Brightside said:

Funny that my "non-denominational" school still sang hymns and got us to "pray".

I've mentioned this before but my "non-denominational" schools from 5 years of age started off every day with hymns and prayers and, in secondary school, a Bible reading as well. No wonder kids grow up believing utter nonsense, having mythology drummed into them by authority figures every day. For the determined ones there was also the (IMO) slightly creepy Scripture Union which also had its own Camps.

It's my view that we need "non-religious indoctrination" schools, not "non-denominational" ones. If folk are determined to have their children hear religious stuff it should be in the home or the church. 

[Cheese]

 

1 hour ago, CTQP1867 said:

For the record, how many Jewish, Episcopalian or “inter-denominational” schools are there? 
And why isn’t there an option for Muslims or Buddhists? Or atheists for that matter?

Not many AFAIK, maybe 10-20 in total, the overwhelming majority of non non-denominational schools are of course RC.

I would think that there simply isn't the numbers for a Buddhist school. There's certainly private Muslim schools and there's been attempts to set up state funded ones which are also open to non Muslims. I'm not 100% sure of this, but If atheist parents feel that strongly about any religious indoctrination then I think they have the right to remove their child from Religious Studies classes in non-denominational schools.

[CTQP1867]

7 minutes ago, Herc said:

 

Not many AFAIK, maybe 10-20 in total, the overwhelming majority of non non-denominational schools are of course RC.

A quick google search reveals 1 Jewish and 3 Episcopalian primary schools.

not sure why the Muslims can’t go to court to get their own taxpayer funded ones?

some more segregation can only be good for Scotland after all. 

[Granny Danger]

17 minutes ago, Herc said:

 

Not many AFAIK, maybe 10-20 in total, the overwhelming majority of non non-denominational schools are of course RC.

I would think that there simply isn't the numbers for a Buddhist school. There's certainly private Muslim schools and there's been attempts to set up state funded ones which are also open to non Muslims. I'm not 100% sure of this, but If atheist parents feel that strongly about any religious indoctrination then I think they have the right to remove their child from Religious Studies classes in non-denominational schools.

You think that’s a better option than not having religion commingled with our educational system?  I certainly don’t.

FWIW there should be an element of religious studies in school, probably as part of modern studies.  Children should be educated about religion in schools but not indoctrinated.

[TxRover]

6 hours ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Religion is made up shite for cowards to hide behind and justify their bigoted thoughts and acts.

Nothing will ever change my mind on that.

Ever.

I don’t have a problem with Jesus, it’s his fan club I can’t stand.

[Boo Khaki]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

You think that’s a better option than not having religion commingled with our educational system?  I certainly don’t.

FWIW there should be an element of religious studies in school, probably as part of modern studies.  Children should be educated about religion in schools but not indoctrinated.

RE I'm ambivalent about. I agree that in principle kids should be taught about the world around them, including the people in it, those who might be different culturally to the norm around them, and differences of belief, but there's a part of me that also thinks it isn't appropriate to teach as a school subject, entirely because religion is a personal matter, and in the vast majority of cases there is nothing to stop children researching religions and forming their own opinions and beliefs if that is what they want to do. That comes back to the point I made a while back about there being no such thing as a 'Christian child' and so on. They start with open minds, I don't see any reason to deliberately fill them with shite whether the child asks for it or not.

The point about parental freedom doesn't really address the problem with mandatory worship in state schools IMO. My parents are/were both atheists, as am I, yet back in the 80's when I asked to be excused from the CoS assembly nonsense and hymn signing, I was told in no uncertain terms to stop being disruptive and threatened with punishment if I persisted. As I said before, had I pushed it, I suspect that my parents might have backed me, but I never had a particularly good relationship with them and certainly didn't feel any support from them at the time. If I'd been one of the muslim kids my refusal would have been accepted unquestioningly, but there was a prevailing attitude that if you were white Scots you were CoS by default, so there was no grounds for expecting to be excused anyway. Also, with religion being a personal matter, and most people being of a mind that people should be free to believe and practise whatever they choose, I'm not certain that children should have to rely on a parental, rather than personal veto in any case. In my case, my views on Christianity were pretty much at 9 or 10 years old as they are now 40'odd years on. Why should what my parents believe, or otherwise, take precedence over my own views on what is entirely a personal matter?

This isn't why I have an issue with the parental veto though. The few children who were excused were mercilessly ribbed about their absence, and subjected to all sorts of religiously bigoted shite. Kids constantly asking if they were Jewish, Mormons, Hindus and so on, and endlessly mocked just for being different, even though those doing the mocking often had no idea what the actual difference itself was. This wouldn't have been an issue at all if there were no religious assemblies or observances to begin with, as no child would have to be withheld, and then subjected to the consequences of being somewhere other than where all of their pals were. Christian churches are, somewhat famously, open on Sundays while schools are not, so I can not think of any conceivable reason for subjecting ambivalent or unwilling children to compulsory worship, beyond a wish to indoctrinate a captive audience who have no means of opting out. The idea that the bigotry and mocking was due to a lack of understanding doesn't really wash, when the children guilty of it were already subject to non-partisan Religious Education classes. Kids just inherently take the piss out of other kids for non-conformity, so the issue was caused entirely by the fact that the veto of compulsory worship highlighted the non-conformity and flagged it as something to be mocked.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[Cheese]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

FWIW there should be an element of religious studies in school, probably as part of modern studies.  Children should be educated about religion in schools but not indoctrinated.

This is the current situation for the 85% of school pupils who attend non-denominational schools.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

Alex O'Connor AKA CosmicSkeptic is an atheist YouTuber who I'm a great fan of.  He always debates in good faith and with an open mind.  Articulate and highly intelligent.. I'm also highly jealous of his youth!

Here he takes on Christian philosopher William Lane Craig, who was a huge part in my journey to faith.

The topic is the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

I challenge anyone to completely understand what they are both on about!  I think I 'got' most of it, but certainly not all!

I may be the only saddo here that loves watching this type of thing, but I do find it fascinating.  The Kalam Cosmological Argument is powerful IMO.  The debate is a good one, with both men coming across as respectful and humble.. traits which these type of debates often lack.

Anyway, better not stay up too late.. Kirk in the morning!

Edited August 5, 2023 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[tamthebam]

7 hours ago, CTQP1867 said:

A quick google search reveals 1 Jewish and 3 Episcopalian primary schools.

not sure why the Muslims can’t go to court to get their own taxpayer funded ones?

some more segregation can only be good for Scotland after all. 

I suppose if we'd followed England's example we'd have free schools and academies:

The Tam the Bam run Pope John Paul William of Orange Jewish Madrassa of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster welcomes your children and the government's cash 

[Cosmic Joe]

If the denominations were in a Nations' League format, would the bottom league consist of the Wee Frees, Jehovah's Witnesses and thon horrible mob from the US who protest outside funerals? 

[Richey Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said:

If the denominations were in a Nations' League format, would the bottom league consist of the Wee Frees, Jehovah's Witnesses and thon horrible mob from the US who protest outside funerals? 

How about Scientology?

[Cosmic Joe]

14 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

How about Scientology?

Fair point

[Boo Khaki]

Westboro Baptists are just a WUMming/phishing exercise. Even they don't believe the nonsense written on the placards.

TBH, I don't think you can play 'batshittery Top Trumps' when it comes to religious groups, because all of them have beliefs that defy logic and prompt incredulity, even the mainstream ones that are regarded as the most sanitised, and those commonly held to be 'benign'.

Some of the Hubbardist canon is undoubtedly wild, but then, the biggest religion in the UK claims corpses reanimate, virgins can give birth, and that people can be visited by 'spirits' or angels and not find this in any way disturbing or worrying. That's just from the book they still claim is credible, and not the even more bizarre stuff from the book that even they have given up with for being too outlandish.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Westboro Baptists are just a WUMming/phishing exercise. Even they don't believe the nonsense written on the placards.

TBH, I don't think you can play 'batshittery Top Trumps' when it comes to religious groups, because all of them have beliefs that defy logic and prompt incredulity, even the mainstream ones that are regarded as the most sanitised, and those commonly held to be 'benign'.

Some of the Hubbardist canon is undoubtedly wild, but then, the biggest religion in the UK claims corpses reanimate, virgins can give birth, and that people can be visited by 'spirits' or angels and not find this in any way disturbing or worrying. That's just from the book they still claim is credible, and not the even more bizarre stuff from the book that even they have given up with for being too outlandish.

Any rational person who looks at basic Christian teachings realises how totally irrational they are.  Yet we are told we should ‘respect’ people’s ‘beliefs’.  Why?

 

[Cosmic Joe]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Any rational person who looks at basic Christian teachings realises how totally irrational they are.  Yet we are told we should ‘respect’ people’s ‘beliefs’.  Why?

 

Same reason why we respect people of non-Christian faiths.