ogoftheskye Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 5 minutes ago, immcinto said: Folk on this thread would use that justification for keeping a manager in place until the end of time. I hear you. Phrases like "team in transition" have been trotted out a lot over the past 20+ years. Surely even the apologists aren't going to try that line though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 5 minutes ago, ogoftheskye said: Aspects of the Swiss game did give me some hope Which aspects? I thought Scotlands performance against Hungary was not a poorer performance than the Swiss game. That's the point I'm making in a nutshell. The biggest difference between the two games is the outcome. 16 minutes ago, Londonwell said: As for the outcome dictating everything, it obviously has a massive influence A lot of fans are agreeing with this point in general. I think fairly so. There is a weight of evidence pointing towards that. I am in no doubt that if we'd have beaten Hungary and qualified from the Group stages fans wouldn't discuss the Hungary performance. Why? because we saw that against Norway, we saw it against Israel and so on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogoftheskye Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 13 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Which aspects? I thought Scotlands performance against Hungary was not a poorer performance than the Swiss game. That's the point I'm making in a nutshell. The biggest difference between the two games is the outcome. You really are now just taking the piss. We matched Switzerland, a far superior side to Hungary, on chances created, and actually scored against them. We had 4 against Hungary to their 14. It's splitting hairs because we were generally dire and had a ton of luck against the Swiss, but everyone and their menagerie knows that Hungary game was especially tortuous. Except you. Unless you want to make a case based on our possession levels, which were utterly, utterly worthless and irrelevant. And if you really don't think punters should be analysing games then please do everyone here a favour and extend that invitation to yourself. In any case you're now on ignore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 23 Author Share Posted July 23 7 hours ago, ogoftheskye said: We matched Switzerland, a far superior side to Hungary, on chances created, and actually scored against them. We had 4 against Hungary to their 14. It's splitting hairs because we were generally dire and had a ton of luck against the Swiss, but everyone and their menagerie knows that Hungary game was especially tortuous. Except you. Unless you want to make a case based on our possession levels, which were utterly, utterly worthless and irrelevant. And if you really don't think punters should be analysing games then please do everyone here a favour and extend that invitation to yourself. I think punters should be analysing games. Statistics typically are a poor basis to do that from because they lack context. They are a record of outcomes, but it's a start and it's where I started my analysis of Scotland games. Re-watching the game is key in my opinion: Breaking it down, comparing to past games and trying to understand the strategy and intention. I have done that with the first-half of both games quoted and there were a lot of similarities between the two games, perhaps not statistically - but in terms of what we were trying to do particularly when we had the ball. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 The Swiss and Hungary games were two completely different games. The Swiss were opening up going for the win which allowed us to create some opportunities. They missed a barrow load though themselves, two very close offside goals. I felt we got lucky to get a point that game and I wasn't happy with our performance despite numbers stating that the fans weren't moaning due to the outcome which is a load of shite. The Hungary game we dominated the ball because they sat back so deep and offered very little going forward even on the counter apart from near the end of the game. That performance was incredibly poor and Hungary controlled us out of possession. However, there we have numbers trying to state we did alright because we were able to keep possession of the ball essentially and limit a Hungary team that were happy to park the bus. It's laughable really as the object of football is to win games, where were the chances in that game? Shots at goal or even shots in general? Corners? Direct free kicks? Etc. It was fucking shite and Clarke didn't change a thing until it was too late 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anfield 1977 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 If Scotland fail to beat Poland at home - and yes we might beat them - then lose in Lisbon Clarke will really be under pressure. Doubtless some on here will still be defending him though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 13 hours ago, 2426255 said: Which aspects? I thought Scotlands performance against Hungary was not a poorer performance than the Swiss game. That's the point I'm making in a nutshell. The biggest difference between the two games is the outcome. A lot of fans are agreeing with this point in general. I think fairly so. There is a weight of evidence pointing towards that. I am in no doubt that if we'd have beaten Hungary and qualified from the Group stages fans wouldn't discuss the Hungary performance. Why? because we saw that against Norway, we saw it against Israel and so on. I though we were shite against both Switzerland and Hungary. I wasn't happy with a point against the former and saw little to celebrate. Stop with this outcome stuff as it's deeply irritating and makes you look like a simpleton. The whole point of the criticism of Clarke (and remember I'm a Killie fan, so was well-disposed towards him) in the Euros is that we had nothing to offer, were incapable of making positive in-game changes, and were never going to beat Hungary unless they gifted us two own goals. And even if that had happened, the outcome would not have changed the abysmal performance, no matter how often you repeat this guff. We were utter shite. Edited July 23 by Bad Wolf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy McJagface Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 We were diabolical against Hungary. Surely nobody can seriously argue against that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bing Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, Jaggy McJagface said: We were diabolical against Hungary. Surely nobody can seriously argue against that? I'm assuming you haven't seen the 13 second clip of us attacking 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Deans Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 3 hours ago, Anfield 1977 said: If Scotland fail to beat Poland at home - and yes we might beat them - then lose in Lisbon Clarke will really be under pressure. Doubtless some on here will still be defending him though. Any integrity already be away 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthurlie1981 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 20 hours ago, 2426255 said: How do you like when punters off the street start telling you how you should be coaching your players? They are entitled to their opinion. People who have played and coach dont have a monopoly on good ideas. I never played (I played rugby) only got involved through my support of the team and it went from there. Do you really think Steve Clarke cares what the Scotland fans think? We are here debating, it has no impact on the future of SC. You are more than entitled to want SC to stay just as we have about him to go and debating it is part of the fun and your defence is admirable, but you going around telling people that they dont understand football/tactics and that is why we are all wrong is just ridiculous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthurlie1981 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 21 hours ago, 2426255 said: Fans and the media didn't have a go for the Scotland performance against Gibraltar. They had a go because of the outcome. If Scotland had won 4-nil or 5-nil then the fans would've been fine. It was the final result that was the issue, the outcome - not the performance itself. A primary element of the Gibraltar game (and the Finland friendly) was about minutes on the pitch. It was The National teams equivalent of a pre-season game. Clarke stated that prior to kick-off (link below). This game a perfect example of fans and media not really understanding what is trying to be achieved from a game. https://youtu.be/aTbx2HgvYUY?si=4mYHVsORCmskFvPL&t=178 No they wouldn't and the performance wasn't ever going to be 4 or 5 nil as it wasn't good enough. The Northern Ireland game was the same. I dont care what he said publicly (I guarantee it wasn't what he said behind close doors). Preseason games are not only about fitness (and I have covered how this is nonsense for these games in an earlier post) it's about performance as well and momentum/ramping it up for the 1st game and hitting the ground running, we stumbled into the ground with a thumping off Germany, a decent performance against Switzerland and a mediocre performance against the Hungarians. Edited July 23 by Arthurlie1981 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said: a decent performance against Switzerland and a mediocre performance against the Hungarians. Very generous descriptions, especially the latter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 On 23/07/2024 at 19:12, Arthurlie1981 said: the performance wasn't ever going to be 4 or 5 nil as it wasn't good enough. The Northern Ireland game was the same. Result and performance aren't synonyms. Results don't always reflect performance. That's a point I've tried to convey repeatedly - A topical example might be when The Netherlands beat us 4-nil in March. Should Scotland have beaten Gibraltar by four/five there wouldn't have been the same negativity post-match. The outcome always shapes the narrative. That's my opinion and it's clear we don't agree. On 23/07/2024 at 19:12, Arthurlie1981 said: I dont care what he said publicly. Preseason games are not only about fitness it's about performance as well and momentum/ramping it up for the 1st game and hitting the ground running It's my view that Scotland's pre-tournament games weren't singularly about managing minutes, so we agree there. That said, I think it's clear that it played a primary role across the Gibraltar and Finland games making those games comparable to a pre-season games at club level. Clarke stated that before the game kicked-off as we've already covered. Spoiler Quote For me it's just a chance to get some minutes on the pitch for some players. Maybe a slightly unfamiliar line-up in terms of people starting the game. Still got one or two, not injury doubts, but people coming back from a longer term injury so we're careful to manage minutes and It's one of them: it's just a little balancing act to make sure we get a good performance and hopefully a good result. Some of them, like I said, maybe didn't get the minutes they wanted towards the end of the club season so hopefully we can give them some that get them up to speed for the tournament itself. The ones that need minutes will get minutes. Did the actions reflect those words? 23 of the 26 players taken to Germany played minutes across our two pre-tournament games. Two of the three players who didn't play were injury concerns (McTominay and Armstrong) and the other was Liam Kelly. Compare that with the 3-game group at Euro-2024 where 18 players were used. Then look at who started against Gibraltar (Porteous, McCrorie, Hanley, Clark), who was involved (Cooper, Jack) and who wasn't (Hendry). Spoiler 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 On 22/07/2024 at 17:15, ogoftheskye said: You really are now just taking the piss. We matched Switzerland, a far superior side to Hungary, on chances created, and actually scored against them. We had 4 against Hungary to their 14. It's splitting hairs because we were generally dire and had a ton of luck against the Swiss, but everyone and their menagerie knows that Hungary game was especially tortuous. Except you. Unless you want to make a case based on our possession levels, which were utterly, utterly worthless and irrelevant. And if you really don't think punters should be analysing games then please do everyone here a favour and extend that invitation to yourself. In any case you're now on ignore. Ignoring is for wimps! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Why is there still radio silence from the SFA and Clarke!? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immcinto Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 3 hours ago, Butters Scotch said: Why is there still radio silence from the SFA and Clarke!? How long after Euro 2020 did Clarke wait until appearing? It might give an indication to whether he is calling it a day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Scotch Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 4 minutes ago, immcinto said: How long after Euro 2020 did Clarke wait until appearing? It might give an indication to whether he is calling it a day. Not sure, Numberwang will give you details of that though as well as quotes from SSC and video clips Edited July 25 by Butters Scotch 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthLanarkshireWhite Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 4 weeks plus and the same debate still going on in this thread.......even if 2468135 is serious, surely even he must be bored of it by now? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 11 hours ago, 2426255 said: Result and performance aren't synonyms. Results don't always reflect performance. That's a point I've tried to convey repeatedly I must have missed that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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