Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[Cardinal Richelieu]

On 30/08/2024 at 23:30, BFTD said:

This digressing into a phone brag/Apple v Android thread might be an improvement TBH.

Happily / Sadly, not everyone will agree. And if I was a new user and came in here to read/discuss Chripper's and Butters Scotch's pointless and irrelevant handbags, I'd be straight out the door again. I've had to delete half a pages of their shite - apologies if a couple of "normal" comments got lost in my deleting frenzy. 

Please keep the conversation at least vaguely on track. 

[BFTD]

8 hours ago, Cardinal Richelieu said:

Happily / Sadly, not everyone will agree. And if I was a new user and came in here to read/discuss Chripper's and Butters Scotch's pointless and irrelevant handbags, I'd be straight out the door again. I've had to delete half a pages of their shite - apologies if a couple of "normal" comments got lost in my deleting frenzy. 

Please keep the conversation at least vaguely on track. 

This is fairly normal TBF. Scotland exiting a tournament, at any stage, tends to lead to a massive head's gone from a few folk in a way that their club side being shite doesn't. It'll calm down if we pick up a few decent results in the Nations League (admittedly a big 'if' at the moment).

Probably not a coincidence that the folk without a club listed are the biggest culprits. Go watch your local team, boys, and get used to being disappointed on a weekly basis, rather than every couple of years.

[Old Bing]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

This is fairly normal TBF. Scotland exiting a tournament, at any stage, tends to lead to a massive head's gone from a few folk in a way that their club side being shite doesn't. It'll calm down if we pick up a few decent results in the Nations League (admittedly a big 'if' at the moment).

Probably not a coincidence that the folk without a club listed are the biggest culprits. Go watch your local team, boys, and get used to being disappointed on a weekly basis, rather than every couple of years.

Personally I'm looking forward to if we sneak a draw or a win against Poland. And people coming on fist pumping and feeling vindicated. Not remembering we've still shat the bed at 2 tournaments.

[BFTD]

2 minutes ago, Old Bing said:

Personally I'm looking forward to if we sneak a draw or a win against Poland. And people coming on fist pumping and feeling vindicated. Not remembering we've still shat the bed at 2 tournaments.

I think you (and others) seem to be conflating fist pumping and vindication with actually enjoying following the national team, and having a good time doing so.

It's an odd thing to be upset about, but this thread's been a binfire for months already, so probably best to leave it at that until there's actually something worth talking about.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

On 30/08/2024 at 09:46, Old Bing said:

I posted I think 1 maybe 2 suggestions at the time, and thought there were a few other good suggestions.

The injury problems are minimal, all nations have injuries. If there was one team at the euros with a full squad to pick from every game I'd be amazed. So we're no different in that regard.

We were missing our first two choices  RWB s

and it told

 

[Old Bing]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

I think you (and others) seem to be conflating fist pumping and vindication with actually enjoying following the national team, and having a good time doing so.

It's an odd thing to be upset about, but this thread's been a binfire for months already, so probably best to leave it at that until there's actually something worth talking about.

Theres plenty of folk posting on the thread, your under no obligation to read it or comment. 

But I guarantee if that (result) happens there will be posts trying to vindictive and think it cancels out the euros.

I enjoy a scotland win and good performance as much as anyone mate. But tbh I'm struggling to remember that feeling. The Gibraltar friendly win didn't get me that excited either.

[2426255]

I'm viewing the qualification for the 2026 World Cup as a last hurrah for Clarke as manager of Scotland. I think it will largely go on to define his tenure at Scotland as a success or a failure, primarily because it's the last campaign he'll be involved in, but also because we've had a fairly even mix of success and disappointment under him, same as with any manager. I intend to get right behind him and the team for this, his last, campaign starting on Thursday against Poland.

I think like him or not he is a good person to hand over the National team to whoever is the next incumbent. A few comments in the press have made me wonder if he is already preparing a handover, but I think that's one of the best thing about his time as manager: He has always tried to improve more than just the team on the pitch and I think that will help whoever comes in after Clarke. 

Quote

I had a good chat with Ian Maxwell. I think I've earned the right to finish my contract. I think so. I haven't had any discussions about new contracts and I'm pretty sure in my own mind that I'll be coming up to 63 and it might be time to do something else.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24545520.steve-clarke-insists-earned-right-continue-scotland/

Quote

I’ve got a group of players that are determined to go to a World Cup with their country and some of them it will be their last chance. It will certainly be my last chance, so there’s the motivation there.

https://youtu.be/o8xL2z03Ji0?si=70AMr4ahJSKGCNam

Quote

With the challenges we've had in the summer, I thought that maybe I would freshen a little bit going into this campaign. We’ve really just tried to get some of the more senior lads looking over their shoulder at all these youngsters coming up behind them. That's what you have to do because in football there's always someone coming along to take your place. Eventually it will be someone sitting in this chair that's not me.

https://www.rangersreview.co.uk/news/24545582.steve-clarke-lauds-john-souttar-bouncing-back-euros-blow/

[BB_Bino]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

I'm viewing the qualification for the 2026 World Cup as a last hurrah for Clarke as manager of Scotland. I think it will largely go on to define his tenure at Scotland as a success or a failure, primarily because it's the last campaign he'll be involved in, but also because we've had a fairly even mix of success and disappointment under him, same as with any manager.

Hhmm,not sure I agree with this and I think, regardless of how we do, I think he will be regarded as a successful Scotland manager. Craig Brown is looked on as a success, and rightly so because he took us to Euro 96 and the World Cup in 98. However Brown ended his reign with a failed Euro 2000 and failed World Cup 2002 attempt. Clarke should be no different despite his failings. 

[Gordon EF]

2 hours ago, BB_Bino said:

Hhmm,not sure I agree with this and I think, regardless of how we do, I think he will be regarded as a successful Scotland manager. Craig Brown is looked on as a success, and rightly so because he took us to Euro 96 and the World Cup in 98. However Brown ended his reign with a failed Euro 2000 and failed World Cup 2002 attempt. Clarke should be no different despite his failings. 

I'm conscious of not wanting to continue the tedious Clarke bad / Clarke good stuff but I think you have to go beyond "qualified for 2 tournaments = qualified for 2 tournaments" comparison.

1996 was a 16 team Euro that we came agonisingly close to getting to the QFs in. 1998 was a 32 team world cup where there were 14 UEFA qualifying spots.

Very different to qualifying for a 24 team Euros.

Ultimately, I think Clarke will go on to be viewed in a similar vein to Brown (unless we do something special at the next WC) but 96 + 98 != 20 + 24 IMO. 

[Ken Deans]

Astonishing. How much proof do you need? Everyone knows the list of abject failure

Shouldn't b acceptable in any way

[Old Bing]

3 minutes ago, Ken Deans said:

Astonishing. How much proof do you need? Everyone knows the list of abject failure

Shouldn't b acceptable in any way

It's wild eh, 1 win in 12 against Gibraltar. Playing progressively worse as time goes on, yet it's a success

It's the easiest job in football.

[forameus]

23 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

I'm conscious of not wanting to continue the tedious Clarke bad / Clarke good stuff but I think you have to go beyond "qualified for 2 tournaments = qualified for 2 tournaments" comparison.

1996 was a 16 team Euro that we came agonisingly close to getting to the QFs in. 1998 was a 32 team world cup where there were 14 UEFA qualifying spots.

Very different to qualifying for a 24 team Euros.

Ultimately, I think Clarke will go on to be viewed in a similar vein to Brown (unless we do something special at the next WC) but 96 + 98 != 20 + 24 IMO. 

Whilst that's true, is there an argument that a lot of nations have steadily improved in the past two decades?  Granted, that's coupled with us either stagnating or getting worse, but it seems like the concept of a pumpable diddy is much rarer now than it was previously.  Unless you get Gibraltar or San Marino or their ilk, you're probably going to be up against that's, at the very least, technically sound.  Those same teams were probably a lot more limited in the past.

Of course that's not an excuse, as like I said, we've largely stood still while the likes of Georgia have gone from that diddy that get a shock result against us, to the sort of side that can probably expect to push us close (as long as it doesn't rain).

I think qualifying for 2020 deserves a decent amount of credit, as there would be a lot of pressure on that first one we made it to.  2024 deserves less, albeit still creditable.  But I think with that second qualification, we now need to have an expectation of actually doing something once we're there.  Qualifying for the World Cup would be a massive plus, but presuming we don't manage that, getting to 2028 (as we'll probably have to qualify) is not going to cut it if we're shite again.

[Smokerson]

The injuries were absolutely not minimal , basically our only two right backs that are even remotely good enough for international level, Dykes who I happen to think was a huge miss for what he brings, Ferguson would've been involved from the bench, and then Tierney midway through the 2nd game who is probably more pivotal to the system and structure than any other player. I'm not convinced he would've used Doak in anyway but he was  our wild card taken away and Armstrong didn't look fit. 

Would we have taken more points if all of those were fit and available,? I think so 

[Old Bing]

2 hours ago, Smokerson said:

The injuries were absolutely not minimal , basically our only two right backs that are even remotely good enough for international level, Dykes who I happen to think was a huge miss for what he brings, Ferguson would've been involved from the bench, and then Tierney midway through the 2nd game who is probably more pivotal to the system and structure than any other player. I'm not convinced he would've used Doak in anyway but he was  our wild card taken away and Armstrong didn't look fit. 

Would we have taken more points if all of those were fit and available,? I think so 

Yeah imagine what we could achieved if we had a right back like Bendegúz Bolla! Who I hear you say! You must have heard of him, just played against us for hungary at the euros.

Signed for wolves but was never played and just got loaned out to the swiss league. Then released on a free, so just signed for Rapid Wien in the Austrian league. That's where all the international level right backs are going these days.

-----------

So let's put the crap excuses in the bin and face facts. The manager is a clown.

[Anfield 1977]

5 hours ago, forameus said:

I think qualifying for 2020 deserves a decent amount of credit, as there would be a lot of pressure on that first one we made it to.  2024 deserves less, albeit still creditable.  

Whilst it was our first tournament in over 20 years and brightened up a tough time for everybody, sorry but I still don't get why people still claim 2020/1 was a great achievement by the manager.

We had two must win play off games of which we won neither. Have you forgotten we had 120 minutes at home against Israel and did not muster a single shot on target? infact I am pretty sure the Israelis hit the woodwork at the death.

Yes we played well in Serbia but the tactics in the first game for a fixture of that magnitude don't attract a lot of praise from me and arguably sum up Clarkes philosophy quite adequately.

Pretty much the same as the Hungary fiasco in fact.

Perhaps he thought there might have been a penalty shoot out in Stuttgart?

Edited September 3 by Anfield 1977

[Alan Twelve]

24 minutes ago, Anfield 1977 said:

Whilst it was our first tournament in over 20 years and brightened up a tough time for everybody, sorry but I still don't get why people still claim 2020/1 was a great achievement by the manager.

We had two must win play off games of which we won neither. Have you forgotten we had 120 minutes at home against Israel and did not muster a single shot on target? infact I am pretty sure the Israelis hit the woodwork at the death.

Yes we played well in Serbia but the tactics in the first game for a fixture of that magnitude don't attract a lot of praise from me and arguably sum up Clarkes philosophy quite adequately.

Pretty much the same as the Hungary fiasco in fact.

Perhaps he thought there might have been a penalty shoot out in Stuttgart?

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense. We had no shots on target, and in fact the Israelis also had a shot off target. Clarke must go!

Utter, utter pish.

[Monkey Tennis]

32 minutes ago, Anfield 1977 said:

Whilst it was our first tournament in over 20 years and brightened up a tough time for everybody I still don't get why people still claim 2020/1 was a great achievement by the manager.

We had two must win play off games of which we won neither. Have you forgotten we had 120 minutes at home against Israel and did not muster a single shot on target? infact I am pretty sure the Israelis hit the woodwork at the death.

Yes we played well in Serbia but the tactics in the first game for a fixture of that magnitude don't attract a lot of praise from me and arguably sum up Clarkes philosophy quite adequately.

Pretty much the same as the Hungary fiasco in fact.

Perhaps he thought there might have been a penalty shoot out?

Yip, our qualification for the first of the recent Euros tournaments was far less impressive than the later one.

It relied on the play-off place secured earlier by the hapless McLeish, and although we did play well in Serbia, we needed two successful penalty shoot outs to make it.

We limped to the end of the 2024 qualifying campaign a bit, but did qualify early, courtesy of a strong run of wins.

[Jaggy McJagface]

If we go winless in this Nations League campaign, then it’ll be 18 months without a win aside from Gibraltar by the time the World Cup qualifiers come around.

 

Surely any manager that goes 18 months without a competitive win would be ushered out the door?

[Anfield 1977]

17 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip, our qualification for the first of the recent Euros tournaments was far less impressive than the later one.

It relied on the play-off place secured earlier by the hapless McLeish, and although we did play well in Serbia, we needed two successful penalty shoot outs to make it.

We limped to the end of the 2024 qualifying campaign a bit, but did qualify early, courtesy of a strong run of wins.

Agreed. It was at least proper qualification for 2024. Albeit aided by the automatic second slot therefore avoiding a play off but a tough group nonetheless which Spain were always likely to top so credit to Clarke there.

Results went downhill after Cyprus and I think we got a bit found out when up against decent sides like France, England and the Dutch.

Although the way some went on abut the Amsterdam match you would think 0-4 was a good result!

[Ewanandmoreagain]

23 hours ago, forameus said:

Whilst that's true, is there an argument that a lot of nations have steadily improved in the past two decades?  Granted, that's coupled with us either stagnating or getting worse, but it seems like the concept of a pumpable diddy is much rarer now than it was previously.  Unless you get Gibraltar or San Marino or their ilk, you're probably going to be up against that's, at the very least, technically sound.  Those same teams were probably a lot more limited in the past.

Of course that's not an excuse, as like I said, we've largely stood still while the likes of Georgia have gone from that diddy that get a shock result against us, to the sort of side that can probably expect to push us close (as long as it doesn't rain).

I think qualifying for 2020 deserves a decent amount of credit, as there would be a lot of pressure on that first one we made it to.  2024 deserves less, albeit still creditable.  But I think with that second qualification, we now need to have an expectation of actually doing something once we're there.  Qualifying for the World Cup would be a massive plus, but presuming we don't manage that, getting to 2028 (as we'll probably have to qualify) is not going to cut it if we're shite again.

 

Taking the away game against Georgia as the benchmark I do not remember them being better than us

We had an off night but were not outclassed  They were nothing special