vikingTON Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 None of that old man yelling at a cloud nonsense is relevant to the logistics of financing regular long-distance travel for an entire bus of players and officials. The costs of which have soared significantly over the past few years as anyone who pays even a passing notice to supporters' travel would already know. Then there's the factor of the squad's desire - over the medium to long term - to play in some rancid WoS Division 4/5 against teams they don't care about (and vice versa of course) from the West-Central Belt every other week. And your 'point' about Sanquhar and South Ayrshire only supports my actual (though partial) solution which is to shift the boundary north rather than abolishing it. Scottish football needs more regionalisation to achieve a fully integrated pyramid (which it does not in fact have yet) and one that is genuinely sustainable. Shoving everyone into a few Central Belt Superleagues with ten divisions is not that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 1 hour ago, virginton said: None of that old man yelling at a cloud nonsense is relevant to the logistics of financing regular long-distance travel for an entire bus of players and officials. The costs of which have soared significantly over the past few years as anyone who pays even a passing notice to supporters' travel would already know. Then there's the factor of the squad's desire - over the medium to long term - to play in some rancid WoS Division 4/5 against teams they don't care about (and vice versa of course) from the West-Central Belt every other week. And your 'point' about Sanquhar and South Ayrshire only supports my actual (though partial) solution which is to shift the boundary north rather than abolishing it. Scottish football needs more regionalisation to achieve a fully integrated pyramid (which it does not in fact have yet) and one that is genuinely sustainable. Shoving everyone into a few Central Belt Superleagues with ten divisions is not that. My rantings at least got you to put up a post with some substance to it; rather than preaching to one and all. Totally agree we have nothing resembling a working pyramid. But, as usual in Scottish Football there is no leadership from our National Assocuation, we have a plethora of leagues, be it the SPFL, LL, HL and all the variants at Tier 6 only interested in self-preservation. No apparent evidence of any coherent strategy moving forward for the betterment of all. Nithsdale had to travel to Wigtonshire on the first Wed evening game last August, anyone who has sat at the Cuckoo Bridge roundabout on a work night will verify how long a journey that can be. Travel within the forgotten county can be more difficult than outwith it. Doesn't look like regionalisation will be on the table any time soon. So what are the options for South clubs; the gap between the top clubs in the division and the bottom is more pronounced than any other division in the Lowland area, as some of the scorelines throughout the season has shown. That is not a healthy situation for the clubs or the league. Won't disagree re costs of travelling; but it's the same for clubs in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, Fife, Borders, Perthshire, Campbeltown and so on. Some of the journeys clubs in these locales make through the season will be greater than from Stewartry to Ayrshire or Dumfries to Lanarkshire. When Gretna 2008 join us mileage will only increase. Gretna to Stranraer is around 150km, is that local. As for the players angle; speak regularly with your favourite club down here in CD. No complaints from committee, players or fans as yet. All are chomping at the bit to get that promotion next season. At this time the south clubs are tagged on at the periphery of non-league football and are viewed as a curious in the game rather than an integral part of it. Putting finances to one side and looking at it as purely football; the pyramid is not serving our clubs. They are not developing on the pitch, which I do witness regularly at clubs in the WOSFL who have the opportunity for upwards and downwards movement. My main interest is for south clubs to flourish and grow, I am not a pyramidsta, I see it can benefit our clubs as it has done in the EOS and, although a bit behind the east, in the WOS. Our clubs deserve these same opportunities. Not what we have just now in either the leave them alone their not harming anyone camp or they are making a mockery of the game by being at tier 6 time to tag them on at the bottom and forget about them camp. At my time of life, a bit of yelling at a cloud or howling at the moon is a very enjoyable pastime. A reason for getting out of bed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 The gap between the top and bottom of WosL4 is already very large and in all likelihood would only be enhanced by having the very weakest South of Scotland leagues participating in it. The regional leagues in the North are also either massively unbalanced (see Dundee North End pipping Broughty via a parade of largely easy wins at season's end) or in the North Caley's case, only competitive because the only club dropping into it was a basketcase. It's not an issue unique to the South region at all. And in the meantime, 'ambitious' clubs with a licence have ample opportunity to test their mettle in cup competitions throughout the season, before a play-off takes place. The quality of league is no more convincing an obstacle to progression for them than it is for the Old Firm whenever their fans make that excuse after getting humped in Europe. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 16 minutes ago, virginton said: The gap between the top and bottom of WosL4 is already very large and in all likelihood would only be enhanced by having the very weakest South of Scotland leagues participating in it. The regional leagues in the North are also either massively unbalanced (see Dundee North End pipping Broughty via a parade of largely easy wins at season's end) or in the North Caley's case, only competitive because the only club dropping into it was a basketcase. It's not an issue unique to the South region at all. And in the meantime, 'ambitious' clubs with a licence have ample opportunity to test their mettle in cup competitions throughout the season, before a play-off takes place. The quality of league is no more convincing an obstacle to progression for them than it is for the Old Firm whenever their fans make that excuse after getting humped in Europe. So we're in agreement then; the pyramid is not fulfilling its purpose at this juncture and requires leadership from our National Association to ensure it benefits all clubs within its walls. Good show. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockson Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 10 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said: So we're in agreement then; the pyramid is not fulfilling its purpose at this juncture and requires leadership from our National Association to ensure it benefits all clubs within its walls. Good show. And that purpose is? ..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde01 Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 11 hours ago, virginton said: The gap between the top and bottom of WosL4 is already very large and in all likelihood would only be enhanced by having the very weakest South of Scotland leagues participating in it. The regional leagues in the North are also either massively unbalanced (see Dundee North End pipping Broughty via a parade of largely easy wins at season's end) or in the North Caley's case, only competitive because the only club dropping into it was a basketcase. It's not an issue unique to the South region at all. And in the meantime, 'ambitious' clubs with a licence have ample opportunity to test their mettle in cup competitions throughout the season, before a play-off takes place. The quality of league is no more convincing an obstacle to progression for them than it is for the Old Firm whenever their fans make that excuse after getting humped in Europe. The SoS could move in its entirety to sit parallel to wosfl4. That would allow the majority of them to stay together forevermore at a more appropriate level whilst offering the stronger clubs like Dalbeattie a pathway to progression that wouldn’t end in 12-2 aggregate pumpings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sermani Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 9 minutes ago, Clyde01 said: The SoS could move in its entirety to sit parallel to wosfl4. That would allow the majority of them to stay together forevermore at a more appropriate level whilst offering the stronger clubs like Dalbeattie a pathway to progression that wouldn’t end in 12-2 aggregate pumpings. Why should the league move voluntarily? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde01 Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 38 minutes ago, Sermani said: Why should the league move voluntarily? I did say COULD rather than SHOULD but the SoS has already lost Threave, if a couple of other bigger teams defect over is there much of a future for the league, especially at tier 6? Progression into the lower reaches of the west would be gentler than straight into the lowland league which Dalbeattie indicated they didn’t really fancy anyway (despite also being miles off it on the field). It would also allow some new blood into the league, the likes of Kello rovers could easily drop in there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 All this speculation is irrelevant the WOSFL is at a maximum. The SOSFL have already accommodated the new west clubs by not putting forward any objections to the WOSFL being formed when the SOSFL was the designated league for clubs to enter west of the Kelpies. Why should the league 'voluntarily' drop itself to the very bottom of the pyramid. Sporting integrity? Yeah that's rife in Scottish Football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 1 hour ago, rockson said: And that purpose is? ..... To facilitate the natural upwards and downwards movement of clubs from tier to tier, I would think. Is that happening? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benidorm Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 7 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said: All this speculation is irrelevant the WOSFL is at a maximum. The SOSFL have already accommodated the new west clubs by not putting forward any objections to the WOSFL being formed when the SOSFL was the designated league for clubs to enter west of the Kelpies. Why should the league 'voluntarily' drop itself to the very bottom of the pyramid. Sporting integrity? Yeah that's rife in Scottish Football. The SOS ability wise is at or lower than div 4 of the West. We seen Dalbeattie barely beat Carluke last year who finished what 4th/5th bottom of d4, despite having an extra man for about 70 minutes of the game. Coupled with heavy defeats against higher ranked teams this tells the story. Don't see any reason why division 4 couldn't be further regionalised with say South Ayrshire/Lanarkshire teams playing in the South whilst it saves the outliers at the other end like Campbeltown from having to travel this far on a regular basis. If it wants to be a senior league then it can't shy away from travel of some sort or playing other clubs with infrastructure IMO. If you don't want that, join the Dumfries Sunday amateurs, set up your own local amateur league solely for clubs within your preferred travel area or there's even Sat/Sun leagues in and around Carlisle as well. Travelling to Girvan or Stonehouse from D&G should not be a far off land for a senior football club. Edited May 31 by Benidorm -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 14 hours ago, Sermani said: Why should the league move voluntarily? 13 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said: All this speculation is irrelevant the WOSFL is at a maximum. The SOSFL have already accommodated the new west clubs by not putting forward any objections to the WOSFL being formed when the SOSFL was the designated league for clubs to enter west of the Kelpies. Why should the league 'voluntarily' drop itself to the very bottom of the pyramid. Sporting integrity? Yeah that's rife in Scottish Football. If the clubs have no prospect of getting promoted then what difference does it make whether they are Level 6 or Level 10 on paper? I don't think the suggestion is the right one, but how would it practically affect the day-to-day operations of the league? I think the WoS should eventually be looking at regionalisation maybe at D3 level, and at that stage it would make sense for a South league to sit alongside maybe a Central and Ayrshire league (the exact boundaries would have to be sorted out). If there was a merger like that it would be fair to offer some of the leading SoS teams a place higher up the pyramid if they wanted it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossy87 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Regionalisation could work, but South teams (@ L6) should not be penalised en masse. If a restructure was to be done, sensibly, then all should be afforded the opportunity to be in the highest level available. If that results in 'humpings' then so be it. There would be some clubs dropping down A level, but most wouldn't be impacted by it. A back of the fag packet structure could be. Lowland Prem (as is, with top 3 in E, W & S Licensed club joining) Lowland Champ (Top 4-6 Licensed clubs in E, W & S) West Prem (remaining S teams and remaining West prem teams) - East Prem West Champ - East Champ West 1 - East 1 West North and West South - East North and East South 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 16 hours ago, Clyde01 said: The SoS could move in its entirety to sit parallel to wosfl4. That would allow the majority of them to stay together forevermore at a more appropriate level whilst offering the stronger clubs like Dalbeattie a pathway to progression that wouldn’t end in 12-2 aggregate pumpings. That's a sensible way forward. It allows the SoS to remain as an independent league feeding into the WoS at an appropriate level. As it stands, there's effectively a glass ceiling to the SoS given the insurmountable gap with the LL play-off. At least a tie-up with the WoS allows clubs the opportunity of promotion upwards without needing to resign from the league (Threave). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Grimm Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 What happens if the clubs were moved enmase to sit parallel to division 4 in the West and then 6 south teams are promoted on the spin? Leaves 6 not doing all that much.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockson Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 19 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said: To facilitate the natural upwards and downwards movement of clubs from tier to tier, I would think. Is that happening? Yes. Edinburgh City, Cove, Kelty, Bonnyrigg and Spartans have moved up into the SPFL, some of them starting from below tier 5. East Stirling, Berwick, Cowdenbeath, Brechin and Albion Rovers have gone down from the SPFL. Several clubs have moved from Tier 6 to 5 in the Lowland area (plus Banks O' Dee in the Highlands) with others going the opposite way. There has also been substantial movement between tiers below Level 5 in the West and East. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 On 30/05/2024 at 09:23, An Absolute Imposter said: So we're in agreement then; the pyramid is not fulfilling its purpose at this juncture and requires leadership from our National Association to ensure it benefits all clubs within its walls. Good show. The purpose of the pyramid is to have every region of the country with a clear path to progress from bottom to top, based on merit and infrastructure. It's not to avoid scuddings by some back of fag packet reconstruction. So the only ways in which the current pyramid doesn't work is that the WoSL refuse to stay in their designated lane, and also have no means to actually integrate all the regions under their remit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 21 hours ago, Clyde01 said: The SoS could move in its entirety to sit parallel to wosfl4. That would allow the majority of them to stay together forevermore at a more appropriate level whilst offering the stronger clubs like Dalbeattie a pathway to progression that wouldn’t end in 12-2 aggregate pumpings. They wouldn't stay there forevermore. They would fold after a couple of seasons of truly exhilarating games at some glorified school pitch at Feegie Park and any number of other Central Belt bottom-feeders every fortnight. Who might well do what they did to Campbeltown this season and not bother to contest a fixture because their competitive season was effectively over too. Such a merger would IMHO be the death knell of genuine local interest across large areas of the South region. A handful of clubs would survive, but why would the remainder switch allegiance? As above, the purpose of a national pyramid is to facilitate the health of the competitive games across the entire country. Folding the South into the WoS doesn't do that in the same way that the North Caley should not be folded into other feeder leagues in the Highland area. The relative imbalance of ability is completely irrelevant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 13 hours ago, Benidorm said: If it wants to be a senior league then it can't shy away from travel of some sort or playing other clubs with infrastructure IMO. If you don't want that, join the Dumfries Sunday amateurs, set up your own local amateur league solely for clubs within your preferred travel area or there's even Sat/Sun leagues in and around Carlisle as well. Travelling to Girvan or Stonehouse from D&G should not be a far off land for a senior football club. Telling the South how to be a senior league is a bit cheeky On the travel front teams in the South clock up plenty of miles, potentially more than many in the WoS/EoS. After all D&G is over 6,000 km2 and doesn't have the greatest transport links. Even then they were willing to add to it with Bonnyton Thistle and Caledonian Braves reserves. And 5/12 are licensed clubs with Stranraer reserves being tied to an SPFL club. Some of the rest chose senior football over the local amateurs when that was still an option. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sermani Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 5 hours ago, Brother Grimm said: What happens if the clubs were moved enmase to sit parallel to division 4 in the West and then 6 south teams are promoted on the spin? Leaves 6 not doing all that much.... Theoretically there will be six teams relegated? It wouldn't actually be a south league, it would be a south division of the WOSFL, so there could be teams like Girvan, Kello Whittlets, Craigmark etc in it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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