Caledonian Antisyzygy

[Luddite]

On 28/08/2023 at 07:08, coprolite said:

 If I was asked for five facts to describe myself I’m not sure it would be on the list. I find the whole notion of being proud of nationality a bit alien.

Like Kafka's sentiment of "What do I have in common with Jews? I barely have anything in common with myself." (not sure where/when he wrote that).

 

 

On 27/08/2023 at 05:42, Blue Brazil Forever said:

They ir a' oot o step but oor Jock !

What is that from?

 

@Dan Steele  @coprolite  @oneteaminglasgowYou guys seem to be in agreement that it is too difficult to truly define one's nationality. If it is subjective and fluid and comes down to just a 'feeling', is it of any value anymore?  Are we all just trapped in bureaucratic definitions created 200 years ago by people in government offices guided by invisible lines on maps?

I left Scotland 20 years ago and have only been back twice in the past 12 years. Though all my family are still there and we talk about referendums et al, I'm too detached to get a feel for the general sentiment in the country.  In your experience, how prevalent is the feeling of an old-school kind of "scottishness" (of the kind I'd imagine all our fathers and grandfathers had) and the more ambiguous "it's complicated" kind of mentality?

[Luddite]

On 27/08/2023 at 18:59, FreedomFarter said:

 

MacDiarmid was against the attempt to force unitary identity onto people and he argued Scots, like many people around the world, were comfortable drawing upon more than one cultural tradition. That was antisyzygy.

 

Appreciate this summary and the material you posted.  A few rabbit holes to explore there

Looks like the Hugh MacDiarmid essay you posted was written in 1931, interesting he's pointing to India and Egypt pushing back on conformity at that time when they would later join with Yugoslavia in the Non-Alignment movement.

 

[oneteaminglasgow]

54 minutes ago, Luddite said:

@Dan Steele  @coprolite  @oneteaminglasgowYou guys seem to be in agreement that it is too difficult to truly define one's nationality. If it is subjective and fluid and comes down to just a 'feeling', is it of any value anymore?  Are we all just trapped in bureaucratic definitions created 200 years ago by people in government offices guided by invisible lines on maps?

I left Scotland 20 years ago and have only been back twice in the past 12 years. Though all my family are still there and we talk about referendums et al, I'm too detached to get a feel for the general sentiment in the country.  In your experience, how prevalent is the feeling of an old-school kind of "scottishness" (of the kind I'd imagine all our fathers and grandfathers had) and the more ambiguous "it's complicated" kind of mentality?

I suppose it depends what you mean by value.

While it's undeniably true that nations and nationality are entirely manmade concepts, I don't think that makes them any less real to the way we live our lives. I don't think there's anything wrong with using nationality as a marker of identity, and certainly I would describe myself as being Scottish. I think, though, that what 'Scottishness' means to me is necessarily different to what it will mean to basically everyone else, and that trying to give it any kind of objective meaning is futile. But in the way in which we interact with the world and those around us, it can be useful to have these identity markers - which, as I said in my first post, are basically all made up to one extent or another. 

I don't know about your second question - the data suggests that Scottishness is still a very strongly felt identity, but what that means to different people will be very hard to quantify as I say. 

[Luddite]

3 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I suppose it depends what you mean by value.

 

I mean if it has no definition, if it is just some vague, fluid, sentiment that changes from person to person (as everyone seems to be saying here) this means it is literally meaningless, so how can something with no meaning have any value? 

[oneteaminglasgow]

6 minutes ago, Luddite said:

I mean if it has no definition, if it is just some vague, fluid, sentiment that changes from person to person (as everyone seems to be saying here) this means it is literally meaningless, so how can something with no meaning have any value? 

I don’t think it can have objective meaning, but it can have subjective meaning and therefore can have value on an individual level.

Beyond that, maybe it doesn’t mean anything, but I would argue that it doesn’t have to.

Edit: I suppose I would compare it to something like masculinity, or what does it mean to be a man? That, like nationality, cannot have an objective answer and yet I’m sure we all have our own personal takes on what the answer to those questions are which help guide how we interact with the world around us. Apologies if I’m assuming anyone’s gendrr incorrectly here. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by oneteaminglasgow

[Luddite]

24 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I don’t think it can have objective meaning, but it can have subjective meaning and therefore can have value on an individual level.

Beyond that, maybe it doesn’t mean anything, but I would argue that it doesn’t have to.

Edit: I suppose I would compare it to something like masculinity, or what does it mean to be a man? That, like nationality, cannot have an objective answer and yet I’m sure we all have our own personal takes on what the answer to those questions are which help guide how we interact with the world around us. Apologies if I’m assuming anyone’s gendrr incorrectly here. 

Are you arguing the case for existential nihilism?

 

Doesn’t “value” require weighing one thing up against another, and if that the case don’t those things have to be objectively defined so you can determine how they weigh up against each other? Maybe not, maybe I’m talking shite. I’m not an economist.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Luddite

[oneteaminglasgow]

2 minutes ago, Luddite said:

Are you arguing the case for existential nihilism?

That’s not a term that I’m massively familiar with, but based on what I know of it I’ll say sort of, but also not really. What I’m saying is that a lot of these markers of identity have no objective meaning, but that I don’t think things have to have objective meaning in order to be real and meaningful. 

[Luddite]

4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 I don’t think things have to have objective meaning in order to be real and meaningful. 

“Real” , now that’s dragging us into Lacan/Baudrillard territory. 
 

What does that mean to you?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Luddite

[BFTD]

On 25/08/2023 at 11:14, oneteaminglasgow said:

I think that’s (one of) the reasons why the Susan Calman Bank of Scotland adverts irritate me so much. 

FWIW, I don't get the impression that those adverts are aimed at Scots. Seems to me like they're for advertising their "quirky Scottishness" to people outside the country, and we just get lumbered with them too.

I'd guess most people here will have found them irritating.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, BTFD said:

FWIW, I don't get the impression that those adverts are aimed at Scots. Seems to me like they're for advertising their "quirky Scottishness" to people outside the country, and we just get lumbered with them too.

I'd guess most people here will have found them irritating.

Her face was on the billboard at the top of my street for months then when that finally ended, she reappeared on the bus stop opposite. Plus I used to get her advert constantly when streaming anything online. I have PTSD from it all.

As a serious point, though, companies tokenising national identity to try and sell you their shit is grotesque. Those BoS ads are the worst example but another one that annoys me is seeing "McBookie" advertising boards at football matches. "Oh, look, they put a 'Mc' in the name to show they're Scottish. Well I'm Scottish, I should give them my money then!".

Edited August 30, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[BFTD]

2 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Her face was on the billboard at the top of my street for months then when that finally ended, she reappeared on the bus stop opposite. Plus I used to get her advert constantly when streaming anything online. I have PTSD from it all.

As a serious point, though, companies tokenising national identity to try and sell you their shit is grotesque. Those RBS ads are the worst example but another one that annoys me is seeing "McBookie" advertising boards at football matches. "Oh, look, they put a 'Mc' in the name to show they're Scottish. Well I'm Scottish, I should give them my money then!".

They're still showing them in the cinema. I never had much of a problem with Susan Calman back when she was getting pelters for being shite and unfunny years ago but, yeah, I'll be avoiding anything she's billed to appear in from now on.

"Look how Scottish we are!" annoys me, but it's also been pathetic to see how desperate German supermarkets have been to persuade people of their Britishness over the past six or seven years, and even more disturbing to think that it's clearly necessary or they wouldn't be doing it.

[oneteaminglasgow]

49 minutes ago, BTFD said:

FWIW, I don't get the impression that those adverts are aimed at Scots. Seems to me like they're for advertising their "quirky Scottishness" to people outside the country, and we just get lumbered with them too.

I'd guess most people here will have found them irritating.

Do you even get Bank of Scotland outside of Scotland?

It wouldn’t annoy me quite so much if it wasn’t all utterly patronising shite. 

[BFTD]

6 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Do you even get Bank of Scotland outside of Scotland?

It wouldn’t annoy me quite so much if it wasn’t all utterly patronising shite. 

You certainly used to - there were loads of branches in England and some in America. Looks like they only operate physical locations in Scotland now, presumably because it's just a front for Lloyds here, who have their own branches down south. They'll all be closed soon enough anyway.

I've been assuming it's a UK-wide campaign because surely nobody thought that would be appealing to actual Scots. It very much feels like selling twee cliches to foreigners.

[Miguel Sanchez]

On 29/08/2023 at 21:16, Luddite said:

Are you arguing the case for existential nihilism?

This sounds exhausting.

[welshbairn]

On 30/08/2023 at 21:26, FreedomFarter said:

 

As a serious point, though, companies tokenising national identity to try and sell you their shit is grotesque. Those BoS ads are the worst example but another one that annoys me is seeing "McBookie" advertising boards at football matches. "Oh, look, they put a 'Mc' in the name to show they're Scottish. Well I'm Scottish, I should give them my money then!".

McBookie's the only bookie offering markets on lower league Scottish football and loads of offers specifically on the Scottish game, so in their case a Scottish identity is relevant to the consumer.