Who’s on the plane?

[Skyline Drifter]

17 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Dykes was two months shy of his 19th birthday when he signed for QoS U20s in August 2014. He was there a year before going back to Australia. Obviously players continue to develop as adults but Scotland can't claim any role in his youth football development.

I'm a year out, you're right. Memory's going. He was here at 18 then, not 17. I'm not saying we did have 'any role in his youth football development', and to be fair I missed the word "youth" in your original post but he was hardly a complete player leaving school at 18 though. I'd claim Scottish football did claim a significant role in his development as a player. That's not the same as the likes of Brown, Adams, Conway and Brown coming to it as senior players.

[No_Problemo]

10 hours ago, Tony Wonder said:

I think Morgan might. We have no real width other than Forrest.  If we are trying to change a game I can see him getting an appearance 

I think Conway will too tbh, if we need a more mobile forward with pace to replace Adams in certain game situations then I can easily see Conway coming on before Shankland. 

[accies1874]

Fun little quirk: if he were fit, Ben Doak would've been the first winger to make his debut for Scotland since... the guy who replaced him, Lewis Morgan. That was now six years ago (v Peru).

Spoiler

Chris Cadden made his debut later in that game, but I'd class him as a wing-back - plus it would ruin this post if I didn't.

[DC92]

10 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Clark is dugshite too. Hearts fans deny it now but they weren't standing up for him 2 years ago

 

You can say any old guff on here and it'll get greenies if it alludes to diddy club bias. Most Hearts fans would happily admit to not being arsed about Clark now, let alone 2 years ago when we had clearly better options (Gordon, Marshall, McLaughlin).

 

"They're both shite!" from Well fans is its own form of bias given it's an attempt at obfuscation. Some options are shiter than others.

[Tony Wonder]

13 minutes ago, DC92 said:

You can say any old guff on here and it'll get greenies if it alludes to diddy club bias. Most Hearts fans would happily admit to not being arsed about Clark now, let alone 2 years ago when we had clearly better options (Gordon, Marshall, McLaughlin).

 

"They're both shite!" from Well fans is its own form of bias given it's an attempt at obfuscation. Some options are shiter than others.

He's not amazing, but he's also not dugshite. He's had a really consistent season with some outstanding games and has gotten to the point he kept Gordon out without much fuss. He's a decent goalie. I'd not lose any sleep at all if a better goalie came along, and I'd argue at best he's a 3rd string goalie for Scotland, but we don't have an abundance of options and he's also absolutely streets ahead of Kelly. As you say, trying to lump them together is wrong.

[Lurkst]

6 hours ago, GordonS said:

On keepers, we've been getting away with it for a long time. Our third choice keeper last time was Jon McLaughlin, in 96 it was Nicky Walker and in 92 it was Henry Smith.  

Henry Smith was actually backup to Goram (only 2 keepers in that squad). Presumably during Jim Leighton's post-Man U slump.

 

[JS_FFC]

It’s pretty unfortunate that we had three brilliant goalies at the same time and then almost nothing. If it wasn’t for (A) Each other, (B) Injuries, (C) Petulance, one of them would have absolutely coasted past Kenny Dalglish’s cap record.

Assuming tonight is the end of Craig Gordon he will finish his Scotland career with 75 caps with a career spanning a whopping 20 years, 1 week and 1 day. We played 180 matches in that time but he featured in less than half due to injury and being kept out the team.

Similarly Marshall’s international career spanned 148 matches from the Hungary game in 2004 (the very next match after Gordon’s debut) to the end of Euro 2020. I’ve omitted the squads he was called up in after that without actually playing. He only got 48 caps.

 

AFAIK Craig Gordon and David Marshall have the two longest Scotland careers in terms of longevity yet both played in less than half of the matches between their first and last cap.

 

McGregor has the shortest Scotland career and fewest caps of the three thanks to a combination of the boozegate incident and retiring from international football at a younger age, but to his credit he was often the first choice when he was available.

 

Any of the three could have had 130 caps easy if it wasn’t for the fact they were all the same age bracket.

 

[BFTD]

Weird question, but how does P&B think our current goalkeepers match up to Alan Rough?

He was our first choice when I was a wee boy, but the only thing I remember about him was that people didn't think he was very good.

[allyo]

You don't remember his 1978 perm?!

[Alba71]

I'm pretty sure on the recent Terrace podcast they said that you could take 4 keepers, name 3 and replace one if they're injured. So, in effect, it doesn't really matter as if Gordon isn't named in the squad, he would still come in if Gunn drops out and may still be the first pick from the rest. I know it would be odd to leave him off the list and then promote him to first choice in the event of an injury but it might be a token gesture towards the two younger guys, on the assumption that Gunn stays fit.

[JS_FFC]

12 minutes ago, Alba71 said:

I'm pretty sure on the recent Terrace podcast they said that you could take 4 keepers, name 3 and replace one if they're injured. So, in effect, it doesn't really matter as if Gordon isn't named in the squad, he would still come in if Gunn drops out and may still be the first pick from the rest. I know it would be odd to leave him off the list and then promote him to first choice in the event of an injury but it might be a token gesture towards the two younger guys, on the assumption that Gunn stays fit.

My issue with that is that it’s all very well if Gunn picks up an injury between matches or something but if he gets injured during a match then we are in bother.

[Distant Doonhamer]

11 minutes ago, Alba71 said:

I'm pretty sure on the recent Terrace podcast they said that you could take 4 keepers, name 3 and replace one if they're injured. So, in effect, it doesn't really matter as if Gordon isn't named in the squad, he would still come in if Gunn drops out and may still be the first pick from the rest. I know it would be odd to leave him off the list and then promote him to first choice in the event of an injury but it might be a token gesture towards the two younger guys, on the assumption that Gunn stays fit.

If we think Gordon would be the best replacement for Gunn if he gets injured then he should be in the squad if 26. What happens if Gunn gets injured during a game and the token gesture to the younger guys leaves us with a poorer replacement than we might have had. 

[Skyline Drifter]

40 minutes ago, Alba71 said:

I'm pretty sure on the recent Terrace podcast they said that you could take 4 keepers, name 3 and replace one if they're injured. So, in effect, it doesn't really matter as if Gordon isn't named in the squad, he would still come in if Gunn drops out and may still be the first pick from the rest. I know it would be odd to leave him off the list and then promote him to first choice in the event of an injury but it might be a token gesture towards the two younger guys, on the assumption that Gunn stays fit.

I often think the Terrace podcast is the best source of reliable information for football rules! 

I mean obviously you can take as many passenger players as you like. We're also taking Dykes for instance. You're either in the squad though or you're not. The only difference with keepers is you can replace an injured one during the tournament (regardless of whether already there or not).

The notion that this is a 'token gesture' is ludicrous though. His club manager has clearly decided Zander Clark is better and played him ahead for the 2nd half of the season until the games were meaningless. Clarke himself could have given him game time in March (or on Monday there) and didn't. This steadfast refusal on the part of many to accept the possibility Gordon's actually genuinely 4th choice right now is weird.

27 minutes ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

If we think Gordon would be the best replacement for Gunn if he gets injured then he should be in the squad if 26. What happens if Gunn gets injured during a game and the token gesture to the younger guys leaves us with a poorer replacement than we might have had. 

This. 100% this.

If Kelly is picked ahead of Gordon today then it's because Stevie Clarke has decided he's the better keeper right now. Period. If Gordon gets called up later due to an injury he'll be 3rd choice.

Edited June 7 by Skyline Drifter

[JS_FFC]

21 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I often think the Terrace podcast is the best source of reliable information for football rules! 

I mean obviously you can take as many passenger players as you like. We're also taking Dykes for instance. You're either in the squad though or you're not. The only difference with keepers is you can replace an injured one during the tournament (regardless of whether already there or not).

The notion that this is a 'token gesture' is ludicrous though. His club manager has clearly decided Zander Clark is better and played him ahead for the 2nd half of the season until the games were meaningless. Clarke himself could have given him game time in March (or on Monday there) and didn't. This steadfast refusal on the part of many to accept the possibility Gordon's actually genuinely 4th choice right now is weird.

This. 100% this.

If Kelly is picked ahead of Gordon today then it's because Stevie Clarke has decided he's the better keeper right now. Period. If Gordon gets called up later due to an injury he'll be 3rd choice.

Where have you read that Dykes has been brought along?

 

I read a few weeks back that Clarke had invited Lewis Ferguson to join the squad as a non playing member. He was hoping to travel to Germany for some of the games but maintained that his rehab schedule is the priority and he’d only be in Germany is the rehab schedule allowed it. 
 

Would assume the same offer has been extended to Hickey and Patterson too. 

[Lurkst]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

Weird question, but how does P&B think our current goalkeepers match up to Alan Rough?

He was our first choice when I was a wee boy, but the only thing I remember about him was that people didn't think he was very good.

Difficult to match generations, 1970s goalkeeping was in the main terrible compared to now.

Things took a shift with the introduction of dedicated goalkeeper coaches. Scotland were a pioneer in that respect with the hiring of Alan Hodgkinson in the mid-80s.

I do remember reading an interview with Gordon Marshall when he was at Kilmarnock saying that Alan Rough was his idol growing up and one of the best he'd seen at anticipating where to position himself when facing an attacker (clearly wasn't applicable for free kicks Cubillas/ Zico/ Andy Ritchie ).

 

[Alba71]

Fair points on Gordon. Wishful thinking on my part...

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, JS_FFC said:

My issue with that is that it’s all very well if Gunn picks up an injury between matches or something but if he gets injured during a match then we are in bother.

Clark is ahead of Gordon anyway at this point I'd say.

[BFTD]

9 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

Difficult to match generations, 1970s goalkeeping was in the main terrible compared to now.

Things took a shift with the introduction of dedicated goalkeeper coaches. Scotland were a pioneer in that respect with the hiring of Alan Hodgkinson in the mid-80s.

I do remember reading an interview with Gordon Marshall when he was at Kilmarnock saying that Alan Rough was his idol growing up and one of the best he'd seen at anticipating where to position himself when facing an attacker (clearly wasn't applicable for free kicks Cubillas/ Zico/ Andy Ritchie ).

Thinking about it, I do remember seeing a fair few clips from the Seventies where balls that went past keepers seemed quite soft. Major improvements by the time the Nineties rolled around. Same when you see the amount of time and space attacking players got in the box right through the Eighties, which obviously didn't help the goalies much either.

[2426255]

19 hours ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

Would I be right in saying that Shankland will be assigned number 9 in Dykes’s absence, or will Adams take it and someone else take the number 10?

The UEFA website has Shankland as #9 and Conway as #19 for this friendly. They are quite slow at updating it all throughout the day. Armstrong is still showing as #32 and John Souttar doesn't have a number, but you can have a look here if you want to see for yourself

https://www.uefa.com/european-qualifiers/friendlies/match/2040003--scotland-vs-finland/lineups/

I think it will be roughly similar to the Euros squad numbers, but not exact.

[Skyline Drifter]

47 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

Where have you read that Dykes has been brought along?

I read a few weeks back that Clarke had invited Lewis Ferguson to join the squad as a non playing member. He was hoping to travel to Germany for some of the games but maintained that his rehab schedule is the priority and he’d only be in Germany is the rehab schedule allowed it.

Would assume the same offer has been extended to Hickey and Patterson too. 

Andy Robertson was in press yesterday saying he was pleased Lyndon had accepted the offer of coming along with the squad anyway as he was part of the group but that Doak had gone back to Liverpool for more treatment and he'd make sure to keep in touch and keep him feeling part of it.

I'm (distantly) related to Dykes but I haven't spoken to him or any of our closer mutual relatives since he had to pull out. In this case the source is the paper.