Donathan Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: Eh, yeah. Because it is. Are you saying that Scotland isn’t a nation? No - however I reject the idea that all nations must be independent sovereign countries. It helps when you divorce the concept of flag waving and national anthems and football teams from that of political, economic and military decision making. Let’s be clear, on the former Scotland is absolutely a nation. On the latter it is not, which is what the SNP seek to address. Personally I think it’s fine for the two concepts to be divorced and Scotland is far from the only country in the world where they don’t match. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: A well thought out and thought provoking post. I’d argue that we also have to take the borders of Kingdoms that pre-dated Scotland, or even Scots as a distinct people into account too though. The Scots were originally the inhabitants of Dalriada - a Kingdom which spanned parts of what we now know as Scotland and Northern Ireland. Other Kingdoms also straddled what we now see as a border between us and England. The Britons were/are a far older distinct group than the Scots too, and the mass shifts of peoples across it’s ever changing borders over the ages have been huge and continuous. I wholly respect the opinions of Scottish Nationalists, especially from a historical point of view, but they also must respect those who see Britishness as an identity. Sadly, I rarely see this taking place. I’d never deny Scotland her nationhood, but it must also be accepted that Britain is a country and a nation too. Seeing Britishness as an identity is a a fairly minority spirt outside of London and parts of Northern Ireland (for vastly differing reasons) For older ethnic tribes, i'd note that they were subject to the exact cultural amalgamation that eluded the British State post Union. The Britons largely went on to make up the Welsh and Cornish but if there were a significant element if people who felt Pictish then they are free to come forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 29 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: I’d be absolutely fine with various bits of Scotland forming their own microstates if that’s what the people of those places want btw. I couldn’t see them letting the Peoples Republic of Dundonia into the EU a hurry, no matter how well the jute trade is doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 14 minutes ago, Donathan said: No - however I reject the idea that all nations must be independent sovereign countries. It helps when you divorce the concept of flag waving and national anthems and football teams from that of political, economic and military decision making. Let’s be clear, on the former Scotland is absolutely a nation. On the latter it is not, which is what the SNP seek to address. Personally I think it’s fine for the two concepts to be divorced and Scotland is far from the only country in the world where they don’t match. I suppose the corrollary of this is which current states do you think should "just" be nations and give up sovereignty, is there any? Or have we just arrived at the optimal distribution of nations and States already? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 13 hours ago, Donathan said: Scotland is no more governed by England than Quebec is governed by Ontario or South Dakota is governed by Texas or Inverness is governed by Glasgow. If you remove the Scottish Conservative (7) and Welsh Conservative (14) seats from the Tory total (353) - they still hold a parliamentary majority of 7, just on those English seats (332). If that's not England running the UK, what is? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 37 minutes ago, Donathan said: No - however I reject the idea that all nations must be independent sovereign countries. That’s fine then, but it blows apart your thing about Orkney and Glasgow being the same as England and Scotland given that, obviously, the latter involved different nations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfc Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 17 minutes ago, ClydeTon said: If you remove the Scottish Conservative (7) and Welsh Conservative (14) seats from the Tory total (353) - they still hold a parliamentary majority of 7, just on those English seats (332). If that's not England running the UK, what is? Might be a majority of 3 by tomorrow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Why is always fans of The Rangers or Falkirk ??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: I couldn’t see them letting the Peoples Republic of Dundonia into the EU a hurry, no matter how well the jute trade is doing. They probably wouldn’t need to bother and just take the same approach as they have to Andorra or Monaco. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, oneteaminglasgow said: They probably wouldn’t need to bother and just take the same approach as they have to Andorra or Monaco. Fair enough. As long as Chris Law isn’t PM and Boab Costello isn’t in the cabinet then I’m all for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 It’s all happening in Strichen! https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/4787614/alex-salmond-independence-referendum/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 9 minutes ago, ICTChris said: It’s always happening in Strichen! https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/4787614/alex-salmond-independence-referendum/ FTFY 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moses1924 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 10 hours ago, ClydeTon said: If you remove the Scottish Conservative (7) and Welsh Conservative (14) seats from the Tory total (353) - they still hold a parliamentary majority of 7, just on those English seats (332). If that's not England running the UK, what is? But those seats would go to another party therefore puting them in a minority by 14 seats? Not that it makes much difference to what your saying... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspect Device Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 10 hours ago, Billy Jean King said: Why is always fans of The Rangers or Falkirk ??? And St. Mirren to be fair. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingRocketman II Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 16 hours ago, Donathan said: For me Scotland is a nation in the same way that Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands and Guam are nations. Not a nation for me, Jeff.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Suspect Device said: And St. Mirren to be fair. I've not noticed too many of your denier / conspiracy types amongst our support. Fara say there are some but not a "my team" that initially springs to mind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donathan Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 19 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said: That’s fine then, but it blows apart your thing about Orkney and Glasgow being the same as England and Scotland given that, obviously, the latter involved different nations. Yawn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, Donathan said: Yawn It’s not my fault that you were talking absolute shite, pal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 11 hours ago, moses1924 said: But those seats would go to another party therefore puting them in a minority by 14 seats? Not that it makes much difference to what your saying... The Tories hold 332 seats in England. Even if those Scottish/Welsh ones went to, say, Labour, they still have 332, which would still be a majority of 7. The current Tory majority (inc. Scotland & Wales) is 28. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, Donathan said: For me Scotland is a nation in the same way that Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands and Guam are nations. They enjoy national pride and have their own sports teams, but politically and economically form part of a much bigger nation. The UK isn't a nation, it's a country. (made up of multiple countries that are also nations) They are two completely different terms. ETA - Scotland, Wales, England and maybe NI qualify as nations. Gibraltar wouldn't. Edited October 20, 2023 by ClydeTon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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