Livingston v St Johnstone 27/12/23

[Livi La Vida Loca]

5 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Haha, the tablet! I hadn't really thought about that but now you mention it they do always have Hasty sitting there with one.

They've installed a holder / stand for the tablet and now Hastings & Rice basically sit all game watching the stream. Martindale will also continuously go to watch anything / everything back.

[crispy]

9 hours ago, crispy said:

A shitfest goal either way at most.

At least 4 yellows.

I’m going with 1700 in attendance (although was initially drawn towards 1800). 

A managerial resignation, namely Derek Adams.

No shitfest goal at most.

4 yellows.

1602 attendance.

praying Derek Adams survives the night 

[jamamafegan]

First game I’ve been to this season and sadly won’t be my last because I’ll be at Dundee away. A dreadful game of football with dreadful officials. I was so tired from the previous days of festive boozing pre match that I considered sleeping through the second half, instead I opted for a HT coffee - and the coffee was disgusting. 

[Sortmeout]

How boring is the Sportscene commentator for the highlights of this game? 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

Brown is such a bad football player. He must’ve lost the ball almost every time he had it tonight.

[ATLIS]

5 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

First game I’ve been to this season and sadly won’t be my last because I’ll be at Dundee away. A dreadful game of football with dreadful officials. I was so tired from the previous days of festive boozing pre match that I considered sleeping through the second half, instead I opted for a HT coffee - and the coffee was disgusting. 

We don't have the budget for coffee, you just bought some warm water surely

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, ATLIS said:

@RandomGuy. Any graphs for his fall off? Is it just us overreacting or is he suddenly just shite?
 

Still a good player, but not in the ways you need him to be?

Helps show hes playing deeper too. High progressive pass scores in an attacker generally means they're dropping really deep/playing really deep, and the ground score going up also suggests hes having to do more defensively.

Waste of a player as has been said, really. Folk like Nouble are match winners but they're inconsistent, we have the same with Carey. Play them deep and they'll lose the ball a lot in the midfield trenches but if they don't lose it they can barely do anything with it due to being so deep still, play them further up and you'll miss them losing the ball so much because win it does come off for them its a really dangerous moment.

[Scrutinizer]

Bad bad game. For professional football players not able too control or pass a ball is scandalous some Livi players done plenty of running about, others being their usual self invisible. Week in week out it's the same complaints, about the same players and tactics,.

The whole defence were brutal,even Penrice accuracy with crosses was poor

Holt  done OK tonight,good workrate,I would  try him as an attacking midfielder, but he has played as  a defensive mid ,and probably has a natural instinct to  shuffle back deep.

Pittman plenty energy,hacks his way through games,completely no ball control, never good enough for this League

Shinnie, Honestly would struggle in League 1 ,that's where I rate him, verry lazy  empty jersey

Nouble   is finished, his engine has burnt out,hasn't the energy too go by  defenders, put in 1 cross from a run then dithered about in midfield, all this since that injury....

Why bring on Montana and play him at left back,The guy has got pace,good ball control and is good for a shot at goal,bewildering tactics Anderson gives his all but lacks help

Guthrie is not a striker ,he spends more time in the centre circle,not effective at any thing

Livi need to go back to a 4-3-3 with an out and out winger,which they don't have,but you would still need 2 quality attacking mids,which they don't have

Pittman,Shinnie,Guthrie and Nouble isn't that answer

I 've seen all this downward spiral since last year,they have been too loyal to certain players,and brought in players that are not good enough

Looks like there is no way back

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Scrutinizer

[RandomGuy.]

As for the game, it was kind of predictable wasn't it?

Players made to look worse than they are because the pitch was playing so fast, and the tempo of the game was massive. Only the goalkeepers and one CB on each side was getting any time on the ball with everyone else being hounded.

We're incredibly lucky Mikey Devlin can't shoot though, but a draws ultimately fine for us, so alls well that ends well I guess.

[ATLIS]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Helps show hes playing deeper too. High progressive pass scores in an attacker generally means they're dropping really deep/playing really deep, and the ground score going up also suggests hes having to do more defensively.

Waste of a player as has been said, really. Folk like Nouble are match winners but they're inconsistent, we have the same with Carey. Play them deep and they'll lose the ball a lot in the midfield trenches but if they don't lose it they can barely do anything with it due to being so deep still, play them further up and you'll miss them losing the ball so much because win it does come off for them its a really dangerous moment.

That pretty accurately sums it up, he's being forced into playing at RWB and losing any potential by having to track back and take no risks. No wonder he looks uninterested and at times lazy, he walks about rarely making runs - knowing he has to track back if the opposition win the ball

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

That pretty accurately sums it up, he's being forced into playing at RWB and losing any potential by having to track back and take no risks. No wonder he looks uninterested and at times lazy, he walks about rarely making runs - knowing he has to track back if the opposition win the ball

Aye its just pointless really isnt it? 

Guess Martindales just overthinking it and tied himself in knots now.

Must've decided he needs to play a front two. But he needs to play a big target man, so Guthrie starts. But Guthrie cant score or move so Anderson has to start. But neither can create anything so Nouble has to play somewhere. But he doesnt think you can play 4-4-2 so its got to be a back 5. So Nouble ends up as a wing back.

I still think 4-3-3 would be best for you, with Nouble left, Anderson up front, and either Bradley or Mackay on the right.

You then have Holt, Stephen Kelly +1 in midfield. 

[double deluxe]

12 minutes ago, Scrutinizer said:

Bad bad game. For professional football players not able too control or pass a ball is scandalous some Livi players done plenty of running about, others being their usual self invisible. Week in week out it's the same complaints, about the same players and tactics,.

The whole defence were brutal,even Penrice accuracy with crosses was poor

Holt  done OK tonight,good workrate,I would  try him as an attacking midfielder, but he has played as  a defensive mid ,and probably has a natural instinct to  shuffle back deep.

Pittman plenty energy,hacks his way through games,completely no ball control, never good enough for this League

Shinnie, Honestly would struggle in League 1 ,that's where I rate him, verry lazy  empty jersey

Nouble   is finished, his engine has burnt out,hasn't the energy too go by  defenders, put in 1 cross from a run then dithered about in midfield, all this since that injury....

Why bring on Montana and play him at right back,The guy has got pace,good ball control and is good for a shot at goal,bewildering tactics Anderson gives his all but lacks help

Guthrie is not a striker ,he spends more time in the centre circle,not effective at any thing

Livi need to go back to a 4-3-3 with an out and out winger,which they don't have,but you would still need 2 quality attacking mids,which they don't have

Pittman,Shinnie,Guthrie and Nouble isn't that answer

I 've seen all this downward spiral since last year,they have been too loyal to certain players,and brought in players that are not good enough

Looks like there is no way back

 

Montana came on at left centre back in a back 3.

[Kyle]

Given where we were in October, being 7 points clear of Livingston and it being impossible for us to go into the winter break bottom is something of a miracle. 
 

Don't get me wrong, we still have a lot of issues that need addressed but at least we're not doing so marooned at the bottom which is what looked being the case under Maclean. 
 

Awful football match that we're probably lucky to get a point from given Devlin's miss at the end. Levein/Kirk are desperate to play the ball out from the back and it's going to lead to conceded goals. More than happy for them to try it but I do think we need to bring in more attack minded wing backs and maybe a couple of better ball playing centre backs to really make that work. Right now it's brown trousers at every match. 

Looks like it's going to be a bit of a slog for the rest of the season for us. Ultimately if we can keep ourselves up that's all that matters for now. If we do achieve that; it'll be because Livi (or someone else) has had an even bigger nightmare than we've had, hopefully lessons learned to get business done early next summer rather than forgoing the first couple months of the season. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Kyle

[Freedom Farter]

6 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Guess Martindales just overthinking it and tied himself in knots now.

This season he's doing what I call "Subbuteo football" meaning the players remain rigidly in their formation like Subbuteo figurines. So he loves Sean Kelly who hardly moves and only kicks the ball the direction he's facing. Or Guthrie who is shite but holds the correct position Martindale wants him to. Any fluidity or movement panics Martindale because if possession gets turned over, those players are then not in the defensive shape.

It only began this season. With the two near misses for Top Six in the last couple of seasons, he was playing quite expansive and decent football. I think he decided those near misses were due to that style being a bit soft and a shitfesting style would instead be more ruthless. It's also how tactics have been trending generally in the league.

Completely ripping things up and trying a very different style with the same players was taking a risk, though. Its also the case that this squad isn't suited to shitfesting. It doesn't have the experience you need. There's no Marvin Bartley. The players who could've shone this season had they been given a chance are Stephen Kelly, Anderson, Sangare, Bradley and Brandon. Add them to Montaño, Holt, Pittman and Penrice who have played. That collection are suited to energetic, vibrant football. Not stodgy shitfesting.

Martindale has always had that fear in him that makes him attempt to shitfest when he feels pressure. The league cup final between our clubs was a case in point. The change this season is he's doing it all the time. Its now his default.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[johnoswald2712]

7 hours ago, Kyle said:

Given where we were in October, being 7 points clear of Livingston and it being impossible for us to go into the winter break bottom is something of a miracle. 
 

Don't get me wrong, we still have a lot of issues that need addressed but at least we're not doing so marooned at the bottom which is what looked being the case under Maclean. 
 

Awful football match that we're probably lucky to get a point from given Devlin's miss at the end. Levein/Kirk are desperate to play the ball out from the back and it's going to lead to conceded goals. More than happy for them to try it but I do think we need to bring in more attack minded wing backs and maybe a couple of better ball playing centre backs to really make that work. Right now it's brown trousers at every match. 

Looks like it's going to be a bit of a slog for the rest of the season for us. Ultimately if we can keep ourselves up that's all that matters for now. If we do achieve that; it'll be because Livi (or someone else) has had an even bigger nightmare than we've had, hopefully lessons learned to get business done early next summer rather than forgoing the first couple months of the season. 

I’m quite happy for us to continue trying to pass the ball out from the back but to do this we need a keeper who is confident and competent with the ball at his feet. 

[Jamie_B]

Take McGowan out of the team and there’s nobody to step out of defence and support the attack.

Put Brown in at RWB and you just have no attacking ability on the right.

Take Carey out and there’s no creativity whatsoever - though he has an off night when he did come on anyway.

Just a dearth of quality and pace in the squad, exacerbated by what I presume were injuries to players who have been playing well recently.

We desperately need to get to January and make major changes to the squad, almost entirely in the attacking areas. We aren’t conceding many but we just have nothing going forward.

Also what the f**k were the officials playing at last night? Dangerously incompetent in a game that barely had a bad tackle in it.

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, johnoswald2712 said:

I’m quite happy for us to continue trying to pass the ball out from the back but to do this we need a keeper who is confident and competent with the ball at his feet. 

Do we get that while also having a keeper as good as Mitov?

His dominance at high balls last night was huge for us, plus the amount of points hes saved us this season already.

Id be happier with a great keeper who cant kick than a average keeper who can pass well.

4 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

Take McGowan out of the team and there’s nobody to step out of defence and support the attack.

Put Brown in at RWB and you just have no attacking ability on the right.

Thought Olufunwa done well tbf, but its hard to gamble on going past Brown when you know hes either losing the ball or passing backwards.

Same happens on the left with Gallacher.

[PSJ.84]

Not sure I’ve ever seen a player as raw as Olufunwa. 

[PauloPerth]

Playing out from the back is fine but there needs to be sense applied. In the first half yesterday that wasn’t the case.

We put ourselves under a lot of unnecessary pressure and if Livi had better quality we could have been punished.

We played a game at Motherwell about 3 years ago when they were under Alexander I think where we won maybe 3-0? They tried to play it out from goal kicks the way we were last night and it got embarrassing they were so bad at it, the players just weren’t good enough.  I was watching thinking why on earth are they persisting with this? It was as if ‘this is the way the manager wants to play and we’re not changing for anything’ was the mentality.

Last night in the first half was similar for a spell. 

I get that we don’t want to go long all the time against Livingston as you often lose the high ball, but you lose the ball at the halfway line not around your own box. You also have the opportunity to contest the second ball. Do it a few times so Livi stop pressing so high then you can go back to playing it out short if there’s space.

 

[Widge]

Having been there last night, Craig Levein is spot on with what he’s saying when interviewed. We’re not looking forward enough (if at all), especially down our right hand side. Brown is being asked to do a job he’s simply not capable of doing and because of that teams block us off down the left and make us easy to play against on the right meaning we’re going backwards 90% of the time. The only times we got in behind Livi were on the left where we have some (not much) form of attacking intent. I’d actually have played Dare at RWB instead of Brown to be honest and let him just run, chances are we’d not have gotten anything but at least it would have caused some chaos and allowed more space for the likes of Smith and Carey to work in. The above comment also applies to Max, once again he was too passive and needs to look forward at every opportunity. 
 

It was staggering how badly that pitch played last night actually, the only person on both teams who I thought looked like they could control a ball was Matt Smith and even then you could see he wasn’t sure what his passes would do. That being said we didn’t create anything and a point was probably the fairest result. 
 

I don’t think the TV would show this, but in the first half the wind was brutal and it meant that we were penned in big time since Livis sole tactic of launching the ball forward was always going to be effective in that weather. I’d hoped that the second half would be the same, but it definitely died down a little which meant we didn’t get the same advantage not that we can play long ball football with our forwards. Just a pretty brutal game of football from two poor bottom 6 teams. 
 

Special mention to Kevin Clancy, who seemed to get almost everything 100% wrong. The Max booking was mental and at one point he gave a foul for Phillips cleanly taking the ball without even touching the man. He’s usually alright (in a 3/10 way) but tonight him and his assistants were clearly still on the bevvy, absolutely hopeless.