Potential ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership - No to just 12 clubs voting

[jagsfan57]

How many years have we played football in this country, mostly on grass.

[Toby]

7 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

I'm entitlement to an opinion whether you like it or not

And I’m entitled to call it out as complete nonsense, based on the evidence that we get seasons completed on time, year on year, having played through the winter, mostly on grass parks- with 10/12 in the Premiership and 8/10 in our division.

Your opinion, whether you’re entitled to it or not, doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny, and should be ridiculed.

There’s a massive difference between them “not working” and “not suiting the preferences of Raith Rovers or their fans”.

[SirJimmyofNic]

4 minutes ago, Toby said:

And I’m entitled to call it out as complete nonsense, based on the evidence that we get seasons completed on time, year on year, having played through the winter, mostly on grass parks- with 10/12 in the Premiership and 8/10 in our division.

Your opinion, whether you’re entitled to it or not, doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny, and should be ridiculed.

There’s a massive difference between them “not working” and “not suiting the preferences of Raith Rovers or their fans”.

Nothing to do with my club having a plastic pitch, but it's a lot better than most that have grass including your own pitch, but having a synthetic should not be a bar on getting into the top flight just to satisfy the arse cheeks

[The Ghost of B A R P]

Bin VAR, ban plastic, and let clubs who are (or want to be) in the top flight spend the savings from the former on the consequences of the latter.

Oh, and move to a 16-team top league while we’re at it.

Anything else?

[SirJimmyofNic]

4 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Bin VAR, ban plastic, and let clubs who are (or want to be) in the top flight spend the savings from the former on the consequences of the latter.

Oh, and move to a 16-team top league while we’re at it.

Anything else?

Aye summer fitba

[Toby]

3 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

Nothing to do with my club having a plastic pitch, but it's a lot better than most that have grass including your own pitch, but having a synthetic should not be a bar on getting into the top flight just to satisfy the arse cheeks

That’s not your argument though. You said that grass pitches won’t work in this country if we operate a winter season, despite overwhelming evidence to contradict you.

Whether you prefer the Stark’s Park pitch to the Cappielow one is neither here nor there- it doesn’t support your desperately flawed argument in any way, shape or form.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

1 minute ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

Aye summer fitba

Just move to Russia…

[SirJimmyofNic]

7 minutes ago, Toby said:

That’s not your argument though. You said that grass pitches won’t work in this country if we operate a winter season, despite overwhelming evidence to contradict you.

Whether you prefer the Stark’s Park pitch to the Cappielow one is neither here nor there- it doesn’t support your desperately flawed argument in any way, shape or form.

We'll see, the global warming mob predict our winters are gonna get wetter and wetter over the coming years ........ but that'll likely be a load of tosh to you as well I guess

[Toby]

2 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

We'll see, the global warming mob predict our winters are gonna get wetter and wetter over the coming years ........ but that'll likely be a load of tosh to you as well I guess

Jesus wept. You’re really throwing everything at this now in the hope that something, anything, will stick.

Let’s take this season’s Championship as an example- with seven match days remaining, and even in spite of Dunfermline’s problems with their pitch this season, we have two matches outstanding. Those being Arbroath v Airdrie, rearranged from 3rd of February because of Airdrie’s Challenge Cup commitments, and Ayr v Morton, rearranged from 9th March due to Morton’s Scottish Cup commitments.

Excluding this midweek, in which there are no fixtures scheduled, we have six midweeks in order to fit in those two games, neither of which were postponed because of the weather anyway.

For a country with a lot of rain, we have very little difficulty completing fixtures, regardless of how you try to paint things to suit your agenda.

When you’re in a hole, stop digging.

[HIT THE CHANNEL]

Without trying to be the thread police, I think that the merits for and against artificial pitches are well rehearsed and folks have their (often immovable) views.

What I would stress to fans of teams who don't currently have an artificial pitch is to try and see the bigger picture: Premiership-only voting on issues which impact the entire SPFL should be resisted hard. 

You can easily see how pitches one year becomes 'bans on open terracing with every punter, even if safe standing, needing a fixed seat in the top flight' (meaning enormous bills or down right exclusion due to it not being financially viable for clubs like Ayr, Morton, Arbroath, QoS, Montrose alloa etc. should they ever get promoted); or 'bans on TV gantries below X height in the top flight' etc etc. that just further pulls up the drawbridge. Not to mention that the principle of premiership voting could seep out beyond 'entry criteria'. 

So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set. 

 

 

 

[Broken Algorithms]

Changing the pitch at Starks was an absolutely brilliant decision. Before it, we had issues dating back to the 90s with the construction of the North and South Stand which meant that no who was in charge of groundskeeping, the pitch would turn into a mess in the winter.

The switch to an artificial surface allowed for the community foundation to turn Starks into an important feature in the local area. We've gone from seeing the stadium barely used to being open 7 days a week. It's undoubtedly helped introduce many local youngsters to the club. 

Funnily enough, there was never any noise about our pitch until this season when you've got clowns like Tam McManus trying to claim that it's not fit for purpose with absolutely no justification whatsoever. 

Certainly there should be a minimum standard for the pitches. At the moment (much like grass pitches) some are clearly better than others. 

Edited March 19 by Broken Algorithms

[Heid_The_Baw]

I dunno if I prefer grass or astroturf.  Never smoked astroturf.
 

I think if Raith are having to rip up the excellent quality artificial pitch (zero call offs since it went in), to having a tattie field like Dundee, there should be some sort of maintenance fee commanded from the EssPeeEll or whatever they are calling themselves this month.  They want to enforce it, then take it out of the pot for the league champions, scottish cup, league cup etc.  
Then we could maybe approach smaller part time teams, even shite like East Fife, and use their artificial surface ground for training on for maybe preferential loan players etc.

 

[Pie Of The Month]

14 minutes ago, HIT THE CHANNEL said:

Without trying to be the thread police, I think that the merits for and against artificial pitches are well rehearsed and folks have their (often immovable) views.

What I would stress to fans of teams who don't currently have an artificial pitch is to try and see the bigger picture: Premiership-only voting on issues which impact the entire SPFL should be resisted hard. 

You can easily see how pitches one year becomes 'bans on open terracing with every punter, even if safe standing, needing a fixed seat in the top flight' (meaning enormous bills or down right exclusion due to it not being financially viable for clubs like Ayr, Morton, Arbroath, QoS, Montrose alloa etc. should they ever get promoted); or 'bans on TV gantries below X height in the top flight' etc etc. that just further pulls up the drawbridge. Not to mention that the principle of premiership voting could seep out beyond 'entry criteria'. 

So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set. 

 

 

 

This argument is as disingenuous as the people pretending clubs install plastic pitches for the good of the community. It won't set any precedent and the top flight clubs haven't arbitrarily decided to just have a vote amongst themselves, the articles of association make it clear when a vote of all clubs is required and when it isn't.  For example your claim about bans on TV gantries below a certain height would fall under a change to media facilities which is in Section I of the SPFL rules and regulations and therefore requires a resolution which would be voted on by all clubs. There's plenty of things a single division can vote on for changing for themselves and none of them would set any precedent, we saw that when the Championship clubs decided against using 5 subs when the other leagues adopted it during the COVID season. 

FWIW the rules on artificial surfaces as things stand already differ from the Premiership to the other SPFL divisions and no one seemed to notice or care. 

[101]

56 minutes ago, HIT THE CHANNEL said:

Without trying to be the thread police, I think that the merits for and against artificial pitches are well rehearsed and folks have their (often immovable) views.

What I would stress to fans of teams who don't currently have an artificial pitch is to try and see the bigger picture: Premiership-only voting on issues which impact the entire SPFL should be resisted hard. 

You can easily see how pitches one year becomes 'bans on open terracing with every punter, even if safe standing, needing a fixed seat in the top flight' (meaning enormous bills or down right exclusion due to it not being financially viable for clubs like Ayr, Morton, Arbroath, QoS, Montrose alloa etc. should they ever get promoted); or 'bans on TV gantries below X height in the top flight' etc etc. that just further pulls up the drawbridge. Not to mention that the principle of premiership voting could seep out beyond 'entry criteria'. 

So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set.

I think it points more generally to how poorly the SPFL and SFA run Scottish football.

The SPFL would say they are run by the clubs which is technically correct but their is no obligation for the clubs nor the SPFL to involve fans in any decision making.

The SFA don't even have the clubs arguement to make and yet have no obvious fan engagement.

We are a quarter into the year and yet Supporters Direct Scotland still have "Happy New Year" as their lead article which doesn't feel very relevant.

Yes we all make it difficult and the fans rarely unite but there is no one drawing it together to even attempt to have a unified voice.

Aside from the fans, Airdrieonians and Ayr hold the Championship rep spots at the SPFL so any moves from those clubs would obviously carry more weight.

Edited March 19 by 101

[HIT THE CHANNEL]

15 minutes ago, Pie Of The Month said:

This argument is as disingenuous as the people pretending clubs install plastic pitches for the good of the community. It won't set any precedent and the top flight clubs haven't arbitrarily decided to just have a vote amongst themselves, the articles of association make it clear when a vote of all clubs is required and when it isn't.  For example your claim about bans on TV gantries below a certain height would fall under a change to media facilities which is in Section I of the SPFL rules and regulations and therefore requires a resolution which would be voted on by all clubs. There's plenty of things a single division can vote on for changing for themselves and none of them would set any precedent, we saw that when the Championship clubs decided against using 5 subs when the other leagues adopted it during the COVID season. 

FWIW the rules on artificial surfaces as things stand already differ from the Premiership to the other SPFL divisions and no one seemed to notice or care. 

I can assure you I am not being disingenuous. Based on the comment from Artemis in the L1 thread (copied below) , the rules seem to hinge on the following point -  "exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant to only one” division.

 

To my mind it is just false to say that a decision on what surface is permitted in the top flight relates solely to those who currently occupy that division. 

 

 

Artemis:

Are they using this (very poorly drafted) provision from the Articles? I’ve only had a quick look but it appears that the Chairman of the SPFL Board is the sole arbiter of whether a matter “exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant to only one” division.
The reference to 61.2 is the provision that allows only Premiership clubs to vote on changes to the Premiership/Championship play-offs.

61.1 Subject to Article 61.2, where an Ordinary Resolution before a General
Meeting, including a resolution proposing an amendment to a provision of the
Rules, is not a special resolution, Qualified Resolution or a Commercial
Resolution and it exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant
to only one or as the case may be, more specific Divisions, of which the
Chairman failing whom the chairman of the relevant meeting, shall be the sole
judge, not less than 75% of the Members owning and operating Clubs entitled
for the time being to participate in each of the relevant Division or as the case
may be, Divisions, whether all of the relevant Members of the Company
actually attend and vote or not, shall be required for the passing of the
resolution.

[chris1883]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Complete and utter nonsense to claim that Livingston and Hamilton have been building a model for community engagement that the likes of Ayr, Morton or Patrick have not, on the sole premise of them having an artificial surface. 

You're only digging a deeper hole for yourselves as this special pleading continues.

OK - fair enough... I went into a ramble.

What I was trying to get at is I would rather clubs invest in player development than be tied to 'rules' around installing grass pitches. I just worry that we start having requirements that require spending on more and more things which won't benefit the game.

[Jives Miguel]

Very sad that Raith Rovers fans aren't concerned with the health and safety of the professional athletes that have to risk life and limb playing on your ligament busting, ankle shredding plastic abomination of a pitch. 

Very selfish IMO.

[jagsfan57]

1 hour ago, HIT THE CHANNEL said:

Without trying to be the thread police, I think that the merits for and against artificial pitches are well rehearsed and folks have their (often immovable) views.

What I would stress to fans of teams who don't currently have an artificial pitch is to try and see the bigger picture: Premiership-only voting on issues which impact the entire SPFL should be resisted hard. 

You can easily see how pitches one year becomes 'bans on open terracing with every punter, even if safe standing, needing a fixed seat in the top flight' (meaning enormous bills or down right exclusion due to it not being financially viable for clubs like Ayr, Morton, Arbroath, QoS, Montrose alloa etc. should they ever get promoted); or 'bans on TV gantries below X height in the top flight' etc etc. that just further pulls up the drawbridge. Not to mention that the principle of premiership voting could seep out beyond 'entry criteria'. 

So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set. 

 

 

 

You are right about the premiership only voting, but unfortunately you introduced the assumption that every club bar 5 or 6 would move to plastic and suggested it might even be included in the email to your club

[HoBNob]

2 hours ago, HIT THE CHANNEL said:

'. 

So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set. 

 

 

 

As Dunfermline are massive, this pleases me. 

 

 

Plastic in the bin, cheers. 

[DiegoDiego]

6 hours ago, WattersIsGod said:

Grass pitches don't have to be in terrible condition for half the season. we've proved that even with 2 teams playing on it, a grass pitch can be well maintained.

It proves that "a" grass pitch, singular, can be well maintained. Other pitches have issues like drainage and shadows causing problems which are peculiar to those sites and don't exist to the same extent at Forthbank and cannot be simply solved.

Forthbank is generally a lovely surface, but to imply that all other clubs need to do to replicate it is give their pitches the right amount of love and attention is giving your ground staff far too much credit.