btb Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) On 26/04/2024 at 09:25, scottsdad said: This is kind of the point I make about the Beatles. Somehow it got attached to the narrative that they transformed music, that everything that came after them was because of them. Nothing like good PR! Beatles were basically the Take That of the 60s. Whether you like The Beatles music or not, they formed themselves and made a living from live performances for 2/3 years in and around Liverpool after leaving school before becoming a great live band playing long sets in Hamburg's knocking shops. Sure Brian Epstein put them in suits, made them turn up on time and sometimes sober (!) but he never had any influence on the music they played. They fought hard to release their own compositions and not use session musicians (at the expense of Ringo Starr) at the start of their recording career and after their success this became the benchmark on which all other bands were judged - see The Monkees who were the Take That of the 60s. Edited April 29 by btb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 OK, my last throw of the dice to take on the Beatles. Elvis. Various stats can back this up but in terms of recognition, surely he is up there. In terms of the actual songs, I'd take his best 10 over the Beatles best 10 any day. In fact, what is the Beatles best song? We're forgetting that they produced sub-par mince for 10 solid years. Moving away from stats, this guy was the King of Rock and Roll and in 2018, Donald Trump awarded him the Presidential medal of Freedom, which I'm sure meant a lot to him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 On 29/04/2024 at 10:40, scottsdad said: I can honestly say I have never heard of him. He was once in a band called "Mott the Hoople" who did a Bowie song called "All the Young Dudes". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 On 29/04/2024 at 12:35, scottsdad said: OK, my last throw of the dice to take on the Beatles. Elvis. Various stats can back this up but in terms of recognition, surely he is up there. In terms of the actual songs, I'd take his best 10 over the Beatles best 10 any day. In fact, what is the Beatles best song? We're forgetting that they produced sub-par mince for 10 solid years. Moving away from stats, this guy was the King of Rock and Roll and in 2018, Donald Trump awarded him the Presidential medal of Freedom, which I'm sure meant a lot to him. Elvis is a good shout and similar to the Beatles in many ways. He had a (superficially) acceptably safe image that was just a little bit naughty (Elvis was a bit sexy where the Beatles were cheeky scamps) and both were taking the rough edges off and recycling the music that they liked by unacceptably black artists. Of course Elvis didn't write songs, so couldn't do the creative pivot that the beatles did from Rubber Soul onwards. Up until then i'd say that the Beatles influence was pretty much limited to style and marketing and their music wasn't that influential. They were also riding on Elvis' coattails a bit in the early years after he mainstreamed r&b rythms. Sgt Pepper made Brian Wilson sit in a sandpit with a piano for a year to try to emulate it. That's pretty influential. You might not like the Beatles but they changed the way bands were marketed. They inarguably were musically influential too. They definitely did change music, but then most successful acts do to some extent even if it's in a tiny way. I wouldn't argue that the beatles had a bigger influence than Berry Gordy, Hendrix or Dave Davies' buggered amp, but they had an influence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 I like Leonard Cohen but you could probably argue it's more lyrical greatness as opposed to musical. If we're talking influence on music can't look much further than Bob Dylan, another guy who seemed to write songs for every man and their dug, shame he couldn't sing a note himself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 On 25/04/2024 at 22:07, scottsdad said: Alright, fannybaws. Lets choose Queen. Released 73 singles to the Beatles 63 Greatest hits spent 1405 weeks in the chart, a record Had the first single to reach no. 1 twice (Bohemian Rhapsody in 1975 and 1991) First rock band in the songwriters hall of fame First music video banned by MTV (I want to break free) Most streamed 20th century song Bo Rap got over a billion views on YouTube Oscar winning movie biopic Long running musical show using their music I'll give you Killer Queen. Wonderful record ! Otherwise the pop/rock group for people who don't like pop or rock music. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 20 minutes ago, Empty It said: I like Leonard Cohen but you could probably argue it's more lyrical greatness as opposed to musical. If we're talking influence on music can't look much further than Bob Dylan, another guy who seemed to write songs for every man and their dug, shame he couldn't sing a note himself. It's a matter of taste but the vocalisation - can't really call it singing - on Blonde on Blonde is wonderful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 25 minutes ago, kennie makevin said: I'll give you Killer Queen. Wonderful record ! Otherwise the pop/rock group for people who don't like pop or rock music. This is an unspeakably bad take. They’re not a band I listen to very much but they’ve 20 or 30 top notch tunes at least plus two classic soundtracks. Queen live at Wembley is one of the great live albums and films. Killer Queen is far from their best song IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 (edited) 5 hours ago, Empty It said: I like Leonard Cohen but you could probably argue it's more lyrical greatness as opposed to musical. If we're talking influence on music can't look much further than Bob Dylan, another guy who seemed to write songs for every man and their dug, shame he couldn't sing a note himself. Dylan's almost the anti-Prince for me; folk seem to love him, but I've never knowingly liked any of his songs, no matter who performs them. Obviously, as far as performance goes, you'll hear better buskers in most city centres. He's part of a small group of artists whose fans are incredulous if you don't agree that they're amazing, and will try to change your mind; some appear to have found hearing him to be a life-changing event. At this point, I'm never going to get it. Edit: he's obviously hugely influential among other artists, going by how many cite him as an inspiration. Edited May 2 by BFTD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) Queen are too ubiquitous for me to consider them music. Don't Stop Me Now, I Want to Break Free, Radio Gaga, We Are the Champions, We Will Rock You, Bohemian Rhapsody, A Kind of Magic, Somebody to Love, You're My Best Friend (I'm looking up their singles and I didn't even realise this was them), Bicycle Race, Another One Bites the Dust and I Want it All are all inescapable in British culture, at least in my lifetime. I've never purposely sat down and listened to one of these songs, yet I'm pretty much completely familiar with how they all sound from beginning to end. Throw in the (largely American) apparent mass agreement on the internet that obviously Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song ever and obviously Freddie is the best frontman ever and obviously Live Aid is the best performance ever and... go away. I'm not interested. Edited May 2 by Miguel Sanchez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoid android Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 On 29/04/2024 at 12:35, scottsdad said: OK, my last throw of the dice to take on the Beatles. Elvis. Various stats can back this up but in terms of recognition, surely he is up there. In terms of the actual songs, I'd take his best 10 over the Beatles best 10 any day. In fact, what is the Beatles best song? We're forgetting that they produced sub-par mince for 10 solid years. Moving away from stats, this guy was the King of Rock and Roll and in 2018, Donald Trump awarded him the Presidential medal of Freedom, which I'm sure meant a lot to him. Early skinny rock and roll Elvis was brilliant. Late fat Elvis was showbiz - get him away tae f**k. Died having a shite after a cheeseburger, ffs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 4 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said: Queen are too ubiquitous for me to consider them music. Don't Stop Me Now, I Want to Break Free, Radio Gaga, We Are the Champions, We Will Rock You, Bohemian Rhapsody, A Kind of Magic, Somebody to Love, You're My Best Friend (I'm looking up their singles and I didn't even realise this was them), Bicycle Race, Another One Bites the Dust and I Want it All are all inescapable in British culture, at least in my lifetime. I've never purposely sat down and listened to one of these songs, yet I'm pretty much completely familiar with how the songs all sound from beginning to end. Throw in the (largely American) apparent mass agreement on the internet that obviously Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song ever and obviously Freddie is the best frontman ever and obviously Live Aid is the best performance ever and... go away. I'm not interested. Yeah, thinking about it, I reckon I've heard a lot more Queen in the past thirty years than the Beatles, or maybe any other artist. They're just always there in the background somewhere - in an advert, a film, on the radio...just everywhere, and a variety of tunes from through their career too, not just the same couple. I used to like quite a few of those songs, but I've been exposed to them so much that it's like background noise now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 8 minutes ago, BFTD said: Yeah, thinking about it, I reckon I've heard a lot more Queen in the past thirty years than the Beatles, or maybe any other artist. They're just always there in the background somewhere - in an advert, a film, on the radio...just everywhere, and a variety of tunes from through their career too, not just the same couple. I used to like quite a few of those songs, but I've been exposed to them so much that it's like background noise now. I had never heard Penny Lane by the Beatles until I heard it in Tesco a few years ago. I've never heard it before or since in any other context or location. Considering how highly thought of it is in their canon, it's pretty forgettable. Whenever you see mentions of the Beatles' best songs, I've not (knowingly) heard half of them. Edited May 2 by Miguel Sanchez 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 1 minute ago, Miguel Sanchez said: I had never heard Penny Lane by the Beatles until I heard it in Tesco a few years ago. I've never heard it before or since in any other context or location. Considering how highly thought of it is in their canon, it's pretty forgettable. Not a favourite of mine either, but that's the thing about their discography - different people will give you a very different Beatles Top 10. I knew quite a few of their big hits when I was wee, and liked some of them, but was still surprised when I got around to listening to the albums and found songs I preferred more. A really good album from most groups will have a couple of songs you like and a bunch of filler, but they did like to try something different and were usually good at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 Is Michael Jackson not getting mentioned much because of the child abuse and general creepiness? He had an astonishing career up 'til the early Nineties. Young Jacko was something else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 I must admit a soft spot for Queen, and I think it is because I remember them when they were on the go. Talking about a band before you were born, there is a disconnect. Maybe why the coffin dodgers on here love the Beatles and I don't. The first album I remember listening to was A Kind of Magic. I was 7 or 8 and my brother had this on cassette. This, along with Now 6 and Status Quo's In The Army Now. I loved AKOM. I still do. Innuendo was a masterpiece, then shortly after this Freddie died and we had the whole phenomenon of Greatest Hits 2, Christmas Number 1 and Wayne's World. All this I remember. For anyone born after, say, 1990 they are just history. As an aside, I watched Highlander again recently. Surely the best soundtrack ever, that became A Kind of Magic. So many great songs, and gives the album context (Who Wants To Live Forever etc). Spoiler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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