Seal the trapdoor

[GallowayBlue]

Given the chaos that dropping out of the leagues would cause to most of the current SPFL clubs, the lack of licensed teams that actually want to come up and the state of the Lowland League, is it time to scrap the pyramid?

[Sparticus]

16 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

Given the chaos that dropping out of the leagues would cause to most of the current SPFL clubs, the lack of licensed teams that actually want to come up and the state of the Lowland League, is it time to scrap the pyramid?

Thats agreat idea.

We should also scrap the internet and go back to living in caves.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

1 hour ago, GallowayBlue said:

Given the chaos that dropping out of the leagues would cause to most of the current SPFL clubs, the lack of licensed teams that actually want to come up and the state of the Lowland League, is it time to scrap the pyramid?

I’m all for the pyramid, including straight relegation but not whilst the pathetic Lowland League clubs continue to offer up their bum holes to B teams. The Lowland and Highland leagues also have to open up a couple of straight relegation spots before it should be considered (these are 18 team leagues). The regional weirdos seem to think the SPFL and it’s clubs are the problem when the leagues below are much bigger and operate in pretty much the exact same way as League 2. 

It should also be remembered that a lot of the teams further down the pyramid have historically been happy to be a big fish in a small pond. I’d imagine this is still the same for some of them, although that attitude does seem to be changing somewhat amongst some of them.

The notion that League 2 should have 2 straight relegation spots shouldn’t be considered. Having 20% of the clubs automatically relegated from a 10 team league is laughable. A playoff involving 2nd bottom is a more reasonable suggestion.

[GallowayBlue]

7 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I’m all for the pyramid, including straight relegation but not whilst the pathetic Lowland League clubs continue to offer up their bum holes to B teams. The Lowland and Highland leagues also have to open up a couple of straight relegation spots before it should be considered (these are 18 team leagues). The regional weirdos seem to think the SPFL and it’s clubs are the problem when the leagues below are much bigger and operate in pretty much the exact same way as League 2. 

It should also be remembered that a lot of the teams further down the pyramid have historically been happy to be a big fish in a small pond. I’d imagine this is still the same for some of them, although that attitude does seem to be changing somewhat amongst some of them.

The notion that League 2 should have 2 straight relegation spots shouldn’t be considered. Having 20% of the clubs automatically relegated from a 10 team league is laughable. A playoff involving 2nd bottom is a more reasonable suggestion.

Potential solution could be expanding League 2 to 12 and following top flight schedule with split, then 11 and 12 go down automatically, LL and HL champs come up automatically then 10th plays playoff in same format but against HL/LL 2nd place.

[FifeSons]

For the seethe it would cause the Celtic Bankies fans on here, yes.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, GallowayBlue said:

Given the chaos that dropping out of the leagues would cause to most of the current SPFL clubs, the lack of licensed teams that actually want to come up and the state of the Lowland League, is it time to scrap the pyramid?

Is this not the kind of heads gone self protectionist nonsense you should have come up with BEFORE you won the playoff?  Everyone being delighted EK failed to buy promotion again doesn't mean we should close the route to it.

27 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

Potential solution could be expanding League 2 to 12 and following top flight schedule with split, then 11 and 12 go down automatically, LL and HL champs come up automatically then 10th plays playoff in same format but against HL/LL 2nd place.

Not happening. SPFL clubs are unlikely to vote for expansion. Just means spreading the money out thinner.

[GallowayBlue]

13 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Is this not the kind of heads gone self protectionist nonsense you should have come up with BEFORE you won the playoff?  Everyone being delighted EK failed to buy promotion again doesn't mean we should close the route to it.

Absolutely, but then we might have been locked out.  

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I’m all for the pyramid, including straight relegation but not whilst the pathetic Lowland League clubs continue to offer up their bum holes to B teams. The Lowland and Highland leagues also have to open up a couple of straight relegation spots before it should be considered (these are 18 team leagues). The regional weirdos seem to think the SPFL and it’s clubs are the problem when the leagues below are much bigger and operate in pretty much the exact same way as League 2. 

It should also be remembered that a lot of the teams further down the pyramid have historically been happy to be a big fish in a small pond. I’d imagine this is still the same for some of them, although that attitude does seem to be changing somewhat amongst some of them.

The notion that League 2 should have 2 straight relegation spots shouldn’t be considered. Having 20% of the clubs automatically relegated from a 10 team league is laughable. A playoff involving 2nd bottom is a more reasonable suggestion.

Talking about the Lowland League as if all the clubs are the same is as stupid as talking about the SPFL as if all the clubs are the same. Do you hold Stranraer accountable for Neil Doncaster in the way you're blaming all Lowland League clubs for the decisions of the league?

Might want to think about how the B teams are your beloved fellow SPFL clubs and Stranraer have a B team in a tier 6 league too.

The EoS and WoS have a minimum of 3 relegation places from their 16 team leagues, they make up the vast bulk of the pyramid south of the Tay, yet you claim that "the leagues below are much bigger and operate pretty much the exact same way as League 2". It's a bit early to be drinking. 

And finally - using the low values of 8 clubs as justification for having low values isn't big or clever.

[GallowayBlue]

In all seriousness, what would it take for the trapdoor to be sealed (which I appreciate is unlikely...)?

An SPFL vote or would LL and HL clubs need to have a say as well?

[Jan Vojáček]

Should go to a public vote each season imo. East Kilbride? Nah. Linlithgow Rose? Come on up! 

[Cowden Cowboy]

34 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

In all seriousness, what would it take for the trapdoor to be sealed (which I appreciate is unlikely...)?

An SPFL vote or would LL and HL clubs need to have a say as well?

There is a legal agreement between the 3 leagues and the SFA - all 4 need to agree to any change

[EdinburghBlue]

28 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

In all seriousness, what would it take for the trapdoor to be sealed (which I appreciate is unlikely...)?

An SPFL vote or would LL and HL clubs need to have a say as well?

This won't happen because of UEFA's requirement that member associations operate pyramid systems.

I don't object to automatic promotion/relegation, and I think it will come eventually, but for clubs to be comfortable with this IMHO we need:

• A bigger bottom tier. If this isn't achieved by reducing from four tiers to three, then by adding in half a dozen clubs from tier five.
• The Lowland League to acquire some sponsorship funds (other than payments for participation from "guest" clubs)
• (I'm being selfish here) sorting out the structure at tier six – going into the South league would frankly be a death sentence for Annan, Queen of the South or Stranraer, in a way that falling into the West wouldn't necessarily be.
• The Lowland League to become stronger with University sides, clubs playing in glorified cages and guest clubs replaced by decent community clubs, so that it's a decent competition in itself. (While we are probably slowly getting there, this is going to require substantially more licence clubs in the West set up, and then getting promotion.)
• Beefing up the licensing requirements for participation in tier five, not necessarily to Bronze level, but requiring a decent level of covered seating/standing.

And across all Scottish football I would like to see financial fair play rules so that structures aren't distorted by clubs (temporarily) becoming a rich person's plaything.

[oneteaminglasgow]

14 minutes ago, Jan Vojáček said:

Should go to a public vote each season imo. East Kilbride? Nah. Linlithgow Rose? Come on up! 

Have the playoff and that, whatever, but if the non-SPFL club wins they then have to convince a fan-lead panel that they should be promoted on vibes alone.

As you say, Linlithgow are shoo-ins. Gala Fairydean Rovers or Bo’Ness United? Come on up.

East Kilbride or “Caley Braves”? Better luck next year, lads. 

[GallowayBlue]

26 minutes ago, Jan Vojáček said:

Should go to a public vote each season imo. East Kilbride? Nah. Linlithgow Rose? Come on up! 

This is a much better idea!

[GallowayBlue]

7 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

This won't happen because of UEFA's requirement that member associations operate pyramid systems.

I don't object to automatic promotion/relegation, and I think it will come eventually, but for clubs to be comfortable with this IMHO we need:

• A bigger bottom tier. If this isn't achieved by reducing from four tiers to three, then by adding in half a dozen clubs from tier five.
• The Lowland League to acquire some sponsorship funds (other than payments for participation from "guest" clubs)
• (I'm being selfish here) sorting out the structure at tier six – going into the South league would frankly be a death sentence for Annan, Queen of the South or Stranraer, in a way that falling into the West wouldn't necessarily be.
• The Lowland League to become stronger with University sides, clubs playing in glorified cages and guest clubs replaced by decent community clubs, so that it's a decent competition in itself. (While we are probably slowly getting there, this is going to require substantially more licence clubs in the West set up, and then getting promotion.)
• Beefing up the licensing requirements for participation in tier five, not necessarily to Bronze level, but requiring a decent level of covered seating/standing.

And across all Scottish football I would like to see financial fair play rules so that structures aren't distorted by clubs (temporarily) becoming a rich person's plaything.

Agree with everything here, but not sure that the UEFA requirement is a real thing?

There seemed to be some debate on a thread elsewhere and the conclusion seemed to be that it isn't?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

46 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Talking about the Lowland League as if all the clubs are the same is as stupid as talking about the SPFL as if all the clubs are the same. Do you hold Stranraer accountable for Neil Doncaster in the way you're blaming all Lowland League clubs for the decisions of the league?

Might want to think about how the B teams are your beloved fellow SPFL clubs and Stranraer have a B team in a tier 6 league too.

The EoS and WoS have a minimum of 3 relegation places from their 16 team leagues, they make up the vast bulk of the pyramid south of the Tay, yet you claim that "the leagues below are much bigger and operate pretty much the exact same way as League 2". It's a bit early to be drinking. 

And finally - using the low values of 8 clubs as justification for having low values isn't big or clever.

Wind your neck in GordonS.

By the leagues below I quite clearly meant the Lowland and Highland League. Given my entire post revolved around that I thought that would be obvious. I have no issue with how the tiers below operate.

In short, when the those two leagues sort their own houses out with proper relegation and promotion opportunities and get rid of the B teams then there will be a valid argument for League 2 to do the same. I am all for a proper pyramid system that doesn’t involve teams who finish bottom being given the opportunity to survive. Good on the teams who voted against B teams but until they are gone the league they compete in is not fit for purpose and if that continues to make you froth at the mouth then I apologise in advance.

 

[EdinburghBlue]

9 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

Agree with everything here, but not sure that the UEFA requirement is a real thing?

There seemed to be some debate on a thread elsewhere and the conclusion seemed to be that it isn't?

From their website (although you may laugh at the final phrase):

UEFA has long supported the pyramid structure as a fundamental aspect of the European sports model. This structure was reinforced in 2004 when UEFA's club licensing system was updated to emphasize sporting merit and financial sustainability. The pyramid model ensures a hierarchical league system with promotion and relegation based on performance, thus promoting competitive balance and integrity in European football. 

[GallowayBlue]

1 minute ago, EdinburghBlue said:

From their website (although you may laugh at the final phrase):

UEFA has long supported the pyramid structure as a fundamental aspect of the European sports model. This structure was reinforced in 2004 when UEFA's club licensing system was updated to emphasize sporting merit and financial sustainability. The pyramid model ensures a hierarchical league system with promotion and relegation based on performance, thus promoting competitive balance and integrity in European football. 

Is that not just to avoid a single division like the MLS?

Would the SPFL structure not meet that requirement?

I appreciate we use the word pyramid in Scotland to include the leagues below tier four, but surely that's not what UEFA are referring to?

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

Merge Angus.

[EdinburghBlue]

8 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

Is that not just to avoid a single division like the MLS?

Would the SPFL structure not meet that requirement?

I appreciate we use the word pyramid in Scotland to include the leagues below tier four, but surely that's not what UEFA are referring to?

I don't think so. I think they are saying that there should be a route to the top in football for any club that wishes to participate and which meets the rules. In most of Scotland that's the case, with leagues either inviting applications by a deadline or at least indicating that they are potentially open to new members. Not so in the West, which may be problematic, although I guess they might point any potential new members to the South, as constitutionally the South League covers much of the same geographic area as the West