Guests in the Junior Cup

[cmontheloknow]

There was a North Challenge Cup as equivalent to SCC but it lasted 2 seasons. Had it gone on, merging would have been a possibility. SHFL fixture list is too unwieldy at this stage.

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

There was a North Challenge Cup as equivalent to SCC but it lasted 2 seasons. Had it gone on, merging would have been a possibility. SHFL fixture list is too unwieldy at this stage.

The thing about both the North & South Challenge Cups in the beginning they received funding from the SFA for the first two years. Something like £20k each a season as they transitioned from the old Qualifying Cup idea.

Once the money went the North packed it in as the Highland was expanding back to 18 teams.  They would have made it worked if there was something in it for them.

Even the South dealt with the lack of money by bringing in regionalisation for a bit when it was just SoS & EoS clubs at that point.

Unless the SFA  guarantee some funds for a national non-league trophy its not going to be the most appealing prospect for those not already in it. Highland, Lowland (especially ex-SPFL) already have a Scottish Cup and want to prioritise the security of a league season.

The SJFA admitted they were losing money on the old format. I wonder if that's the case now taking a minimum 15% off every game and doubling the semis with the larger share.

[coistysgoldenboots]

22 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The thing about both the North & South Challenge Cups in the beginning they received funding from the SFA for the first two years. Something like £20k each a season as they transitioned from the old Qualifying Cup idea.

Once the money went the North packed it in as the Highland was expanding back to 18 teams.  They would have made it worked if there was something in it for them.

Even the South dealt with the lack of money by bringing in regionalisation for a bit when it was just SoS & EoS clubs at that point.

Unless the SFA  guarantee some funds for a national non-league trophy its not going to be the most appealing prospect for those not already in it. Highland, Lowland (especially ex-SPFL) already have a Scottish Cup and want to prioritise the security of a league season.

The SJFA admitted they were losing money on the old format. I wonder if that's the case now taking a minimum 15% off every game and doubling the semis with the larger share.

You’d have to imagine the SJFA are losing money yeah. 

They  are also now relying on decent semi final ties to pull in extra cash. Something that is becoming less frequent due to smaller sides having a better chance of going deeper in the competition.

Even the final this year drew a very poor crowd. 
 

Something  needs to be done imo but as usual self interest will rule over ambition. 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

23 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The thing about both the North & South Challenge Cups in the beginning they received funding from the SFA for the first two years. Something like £20k each a season as they transitioned from the old Qualifying Cup idea.

Once the money went the North packed it in as the Highland was expanding back to 18 teams.  They would have made it worked if there was something in it for them.

Even the South dealt with the lack of money by bringing in regionalisation for a bit when it was just SoS & EoS clubs at that point.

Unless the SFA  guarantee some funds for a national non-league trophy its not going to be the most appealing prospect for those not already in it. Highland, Lowland (especially ex-SPFL) already have a Scottish Cup and want to prioritise the security of a league season.

The SJFA admitted they were losing money on the old format. I wonder if that's the case now taking a minimum 15% off every game and doubling the semis with the larger share.

I've definitely no appetite for the SJC and obviously the same attitude from most who don't play in it.  However, I would love a national Scottish cup for tier 6 and below.  Is there no way that all the leagues would have another meeting?, including the SFA and even the SPFL to work out, if feasible, see what money can be found. make it regional and even have rounds go by tiers. Say first round, regional, every team from tier 7 down is involved, next round, tier 6 and then tier 5 next round.  Something that should be looked at and if no interest then leave it so many years and return and see if attitudes change.  But the whole nation with every tier involved should gain interest including sponsorship and also TV

[parsforlife]

41 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

  But the whole nation with every tier involved should gain interest including sponsorship and also TV

There's no doubt it would.  But I doubt the interest is there for media and sponsorship(especially sponsorship that is purely motivated from a business perspective and not a 'hope to grow the game' basically donation type )

There wasn't even live radio or official highlights for the club 42 play-off, the biggest game involving a non-spfl team this year.

You can go so much further up the league before you gain further traction, there's been massive spfl games getting 5 figure crowds in recent years that just get ignored because those that can make the call it doesn't register with.  Celtic/rangers/EPL. Fucking good luck getting anyone to try get media paying and attention before those 3 even if the journalist is meant to be focused on another club/tier , all they'll do is focus 99% of their energy on how the game is about the guy who came through the scumbag youths and once came on as a 89th minute sub

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

There's no doubt it would.  But I doubt the interest is there for media and sponsorship(especially sponsorship that is purely motivated from a business perspective and not a 'hope to grow the game' basically donation type )

There wasn't even live radio or official highlights for the club 42 play-off, the biggest game involving a non-spfl team this year.

You can go so much further up the league before you gain further traction, there's been massive spfl games getting 5 figure crowds in recent years that just get ignored because those that can make the call it doesn't register with.  Celtic/rangers/EPL. Fucking good luck getting anyone to try get media paying and attention before those 3 even if the journalist is meant to be focused on another club/tier , all they'll do is focus 99% of their energy on how the game is about the guy who came through the scumbag youths and once came on as a 89th minute sub

I agree with this whole heartedly with your comments but if every league including the SFA, SPFL etc... were on board then you never know

[parsforlife]

2 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I agree with this whole heartedly with your comments but if every league including the SFA, SPFL etc... were on board then you never know

If everyone involved got behind marketing a non-league trophy it could be massive, but it's just not going to happen. If everyone got involved in marketing our product there are 9-10 more sensible things to before you reach any non-league cup

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

But I doubt the interest is there for media and sponsorship(especially sponsorship that is purely motivated from a business perspective and not a 'hope to grow the game' basically donation type )

The SJC final coverage is about the best any cup could hope for. BBC Alba/BBC Website. Could be BBC Scotland but that means a night game.

Sponsorship at this level is a pipe dream. Its more about who you know. SoccerShopDirect sponsoring the SCC meant to have some ties with Kelty at the time. Killie Pie WoSFL Cup kinda obvious (specially when disappeared after the one season). McBookie would look like a good bet for sponsoring Scottish non-league football on a bigger scale. Yet after the WoSFL creation have stuck with just sponsoring the Midlands/North Region leagues. Which only makes some sense when you see they're headquartered in Dundee.

Which is why I always go back to the SFA chucking some money into it. Anything else might as well be all the clubs putting money in the kitty.

Edited Monday at 20:12 by FairWeatherFan

[parsforlife]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Which is why I always go back to the SFA chucking some money into it. Anything else might as well be all the clubs putting money in the kitty.

Asking the SFA to put money in is literally asking clubs to put money in the kitty, except the majority of clubs voting for it can't benefit and means a significant chance of money going towards non-SFA members, again, good luck.

[Burnieman]

On 16/06/2024 at 20:19, KirkyRobRoy said:

Think its time that Kennie chooses what hat he is actually wearing and come away from the directly competing organisation

Absolute shambles that the fixture secretary is actively promoting a competition that plays havoc with the league that he arranges the fixtures for

This.

[Black Pennel]

Pffft. Arrant nonsense from both of you.

How can an association of clubs who decide they wish to play one another on dates which can relatively easily be mutually agreed, albeit with a tiny wee bit of compromise from other similar parties, even be considered to be seen as "directly competing organisations" ?

They are not directly competing. The clubs are members of a league, but are also members of an association of clubs. Are you suggesting that (merely as a wee example) a club which takes part in the WoSL shouldn't also be allowed to compete for the Southern Counties FA trophy when they are still members of that association ? Nope, you don't.

Do you also consider the SCFA a rival or "competing" organisation ? Nope, you don't.

Of course you don't, because it is a complete & utter nonsense invented by the non-league chattering classes.

The clubs volunteering to take part (and welcome guests with similar aims as themselves) are members of an association of clubs. That is all they are. Just a bunch of clubs who want to play against other clubs of a similar standard with the prospect of a nice wee trophy at the end of it.

It is just fitba. Lets just get on with it without shouting "you should'nae be daeing that...you should be daeing this instead" !!!

TL:DR ?

Twenty minutes after fixtures are released Bankies & Buffs whining begins.

 

[Burnieman]

4 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

Pffft. Arrant nonsense from both of you.

How can an association of clubs who decide they wish to play one another on dates which can relatively easily be mutually agreed, albeit with a tiny wee bit of compromise from other similar parties, even be considered to be seen as "directly competing organisations" ?

They are not directly competing. The clubs are members of a league, but are also members of an association of clubs. Are you suggesting that (merely as a wee example) a club which takes part in the WoSL shouldn't also be allowed to compete for the Southern Counties FA trophy when they are still members of that association ? Nope, you don't.

Do you also consider the SCFA a rival or "competing" organisation ? Nope, you don't.

Of course you don't, because it is a complete & utter nonsense invented by the non-league chattering classes.

The clubs volunteering to take part (and welcome guests with similar aims as themselves) are members of an association of clubs. That is all they are. Just a bunch of clubs who want to play against other clubs of a similar standard with the prospect of a nice wee trophy at the end of it.

It is just fitba. Lets just get on with it without shouting "you should'nae be daeing that...you should be daeing this instead" !!!

TL:DR ?

Twenty minutes after fixtures are released Bankies & Buffs whining begins.

You do realise there was real, genuine animosity, vitriol and bitterness from the SJFA when Kelty Hearts left for the EoS to start the ball rolling?

That continued over the following few seasons in the East when most clubs joined them, even the EoS Board itself copped it.   "Traitors" was a term often banded about by those in Junior circles to describe clubs who left.  "They'll come crawling back" one senior ERJFA official opinioned. Apparently the EoS were enticing clubs with money.

That's why - apart from a very small group of hardcore West Lothian clubs who still view themselves as Junior - is all you really get from the East in the Junior Cup, most clubs won't touch an SJFA run competition with a barge pole, nor will the EoS compromise on dates to accomodate those that do.

The SJFA are a pox on our game, they try to entice clubs back into their sphere and generally disrupt the goings on in senior non-league football. Now it's  "guest clubs" I wonder where they got that idea from. To have the WoS fixtures Secty as an official of the SJFA is a clear conflict of interest and he should be removed from one of those positions. To then have the Chairman of the SJFA stand for a similar position on the WoS Board is beyond belief.   Surely you can see what's at play here. Some folk want's to drag the WoS back to the 19th Century.

The EoS don't allow board members to hold positions within the SJFA.

Now the SJFA come out and declare dates on which the Cup will be played next season, 5 Saturday rounds before Christmas.  Now that will be fine in the WoS as the fixtures guy is a Junior man and will fit them in causing the usual havoc as the season progresses, however it is complete nonsense elsewhere. The EoS and LL clubs will end up withdrawing as always happens, why on earth would the EoS even consider compromise in view of everything that has gone on before, and cause havoc with their own scheduling.

If you want a realistic chance of a genuine all-in Scottish non-league cup ever happening in the future, the SJFA have to be removed from the equation.  The WoS also need to get real about whether they are a Senior or Junior organisation.  Bending over backwards to accomodate the SJFA will lead to nothing, except a return to the bad old days.

 

 

 

[Shanner]

Argh. 

[Shannon]

So bascially Juniors bad because of things that happened nearly 10 years ago so the East of Scotland League won't even try to accommodate their clubs wanting to play in Junior Cup because of this. Absolutely pathetic stuff. 

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Shannon said:

So bascially Juniors bad because of things that happened nearly 10 years ago so the East of Scotland League won't even try to accommodate their clubs wanting to play in Junior Cup because of this. Absolutely pathetic stuff. 

Except it didnt happen nearly 10 years ago, it was happening 5/6 years ago and here we are, with the SJFA still causing issues.  As for accomodating the Junior Cup to the detriment of their own competitions, why should they, what's in it for the vast majority of clubs who are not interested?

Clubs in the East are looking forward with the Scottish Cup and South Challenge Cup, yes the latter isn't on par with what the Junior Cup once was but it can be if everyone in the LL, EoS, SoS AND WoS are fully invested in it and committed to making it as good as it can be.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Shannon said:

so the East of Scotland League won't even try to accommodate their clubs wanting to play in Junior Cup because of this.

They do try now with the first round or so.

The standard in the senior leagues has been that later rounds of cup competitions get doubled up on weekends. Postponements moved to the next cup weekend or squeezed in midweek.

Its the SJFA that have went out of their way to avoid dates shared with the Scottish and SCC. Then postponements have usually seen league fixtures called off on short-notice.

[ekok]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Its the SJFA that have went out of their way to avoid dates shared with the Scottish and SCC. Then postponements have usually seen league fixtures called off on short-notice.

Give  me absolute peace and read the brilliant post from Burnieman about 2 hours ago. Excellent summation of where we are and how we got there. 

[clansman]

Has anyone mentioned that the SJFA require the SJC to continue their well paid existence. 

There are threads moaning about high wages of players. Are not some SJFA office bearers getting sums of comparable levels. 

[Ginaro]

8 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

They are not directly competing. The clubs are members of a league, but are also members of an association of clubs. Are you suggesting that (merely as a wee example) a club which takes part in the WoSL shouldn't also be allowed to compete for the Southern Counties FA trophy when they are still members of that association ? Nope, you don't.

Bellshill ended up with 15 weeks between home league games after the WOS fixture secretary postponed their 20th January match so that Threave could play in the SCFA cup, maybe it's just me but I don't think that is acceptable.

3 hours ago, Shannon said:

So bascially Juniors bad because of things that happened nearly 10 years ago so the East of Scotland League won't even try to accommodate their clubs wanting to play in Junior Cup because of this. Absolutely pathetic stuff. 

Except the EOS does accommodate clubs playing in the Junior Cup - the four Third Division clubs were paired against each other in the league fixtures clashing with round 2 so they could sort it amongst themselves if they wished. But when it's only one club in a division, why should they get to postpone a league game just to participate in the Junior Cup?