Germany v Scotland

[Skyline Drifter]

6 hours ago, Swordfishtrombone said:

Clarke has a cheek to talk about 'negative normans' then send out a team to just invite the opposition to shoot. Thrre was zero ambition in that team. You can take getting pumped if you have a go. If Craig Gordon was playing the score would have been halved.

 

6 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Rubbish. The team was set up the same way as it was against Spain (twice) and Norway. It's just because the result didn't go as you wanted it to.

 

5 hours ago, 2426255 said:

The basic game plan as a concept was fine: To defend deep and counter and not get caught playing football in our own third. That's the only point I'm trying to make here. We did that against Spain and Norway and it was okay.

The execution wasn't good in any respect. The press didn't function, We didn't counter well, We turned the ball over often and in bad areas and the ball didn't stick when we played over the top. On top of that we make a few errors which is normal with a team playing above their level and when we tried to break their press it was clunky.

It was execution and not the general game plan that let us down. If you want to put that on the manager, go right ahead. The game was over before it started. We didn't have time to pick moments to press etc. It was just a bad day at the office for everyone. No-one is happy with what played out.

Yeah this. It's very easy to criticise the coach / tactics when you've been battered but the shape was pretty much what we used throughout qualifying. It beat Spain at home and whilst we rode our luck a bit it kept us in the game in Spain till Hickey's slip too. There are three factors in why it completely didn't work on Friday night.

1. As you say, we played poorly. Lots of players were off it, particularly the midfielders. McGinn's been out of form for weeks. Not convinced McTominay's fully fit. McGregor had maybe his worst game for Scotland, etc. Robertson's not looked fully fit since his injury issues at Liverpool across Xmas, McTominay's been touch and go for games for weeks. McGregor had a serious achilles problem in March, Tierney's been out as often as he's been fit in the last six months. Even the good players we do have aren't properly fit. We've been decimated by injury at the wrong time.
2. We were shorn of at least two vital players and visibly weakened for it. We had our third choice right back playing and he's miles behind Aaron Hickey. That's not his fault, he's the best cover we've got in the circumstances, but Hickey's a massive loss. You get away with it to an extent with Patterson but to have lost both is horrendous luck. And I still find it odd that some people on here are convinced Adams is our best option up front. Almost all of our best results have been achieved with Dykes up top, leading the line physically, pulling the team up the park, giving McGinn / McTominay something to feed off and helping out defensively into the bargain. He has his limitations but he's perfect for the setup Clarke's designed. Adams can't do any of that. He's a better actual goalscorer and maybe a better passer but he doesn't cover as much ground or play as physical a game as Dykes does. Kroos doesn't get as much time to pick out passes like Rodri didn't if Dykes is pressing him too.
3. And fundamentally, Germany were VERY, VERY good. I was guilty of thinking they weren't in magic form when the draw was made, that opening games are often tight cagey affairs, that they might be nervous in front of their home crowd. They were none of these things. Kroos and Gundogan are class acts, we knew this, but in Wurz and particularly Musiala they have generational talents breaking through and we're absolutely miles off that level. These are Champions League level players and, much as we've the best side we've had this century, only Robertson can really claim to be close to that level. McTominay, McGinn, Tierney are Europa League level players, probably so is McGregor and Gilmour. Maybe even Christie. The rest are hovering between bottom have top tier and top half second tier players.

There's a limit to the amount of that which can be pointed at the coaching and tactics or papered over. We're a good team when everyone's fit and on form but we're not a tier one nation and tier one nations playing well will beat us, they'll hammer us when they play well and we're weakened. Our goalkeepers aren't good enough, our 3rd choice right back isn't good enough. In truth probably none of our centre backs are really good enough and our forward options certainly aren't, but we can't buy new ones. This is international football and we've a limited pool to pick from. Is anyone not playing that should be? Gordon might have been better in goal, even at 41, but he didn't hardly get a club game last season. If Souttar was better than what we had playing he'd have been here. The fabled 'Newcastle Four / Five' would all likely improve us but you can't make them commit to Scotland. Indeed Gordon's made it to the England squad now. Livramento probably will eventually. I doubt Barnes or Anderson or Targett will ever play for England (though Targett is predominantly a left back which isn't a problem position anyway. In fact right back isn't a problem position either with Hickey and Patterson added to Johnston coming through shortly. It's just a horrible coincidence we're short of one for this tournament.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

There were only 3 changes from the team that beat Spain to the one that got pumped off Germany.
Ralston, Hendry and Adams.

Creating a fantasy that Dykes has the ability to occupy Rudiger, Tah, and the Kroos and Andrich double pivot seems to be more comforting that admitting Clarke is limited at this level.

[immcinto]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

1. Kroos doesn't get as much time to pick out passes like Rodri didn't if Dykes is pressing him too

The only way Dykes would have troubled Kroos is that he would never have shared a pitch with a player with such limited ability before that it would confuse/disorient him. 

[2426255]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

 

Yeah this. It's very easy to criticise the coach / tactics when you've been battered but the shape was pretty much what we used throughout qualifying. It beat Spain at home and whilst we rode our luck a bit it kept us in the game in Spain till Hickey's slip too. There are three factors in why it completely didn't work on Friday night.

1. As you say, we played poorly. Lots of players were off it, particularly the midfielders. McGinn's been out of form for weeks. Not convinced McTominay's fully fit. McGregor had maybe his worst game for Scotland, etc. Robertson's not looked fully fit since his injury issues at Liverpool across Xmas, McTominay's been touch and go for games for weeks. McGregor had a serious achilles problem in March, Tierney's been out as often as he's been fit in the last six months. Even the good players we do have aren't properly fit. We've been decimated by injury at the wrong time.
2. We were shorn of at least two vital players and visibly weakened for it. We had our third choice right back playing and he's miles behind Aaron Hickey. That's not his fault, he's the best cover we've got in the circumstances, but Hickey's a massive loss. You get away with it to an extent with Patterson but to have lost both is horrendous luck. And I still find it odd that some people on here are convinced Adams is our best option up front. Almost all of our best results have been achieved with Dykes up top, leading the line physically, pulling the team up the park, giving McGinn / McTominay something to feed off and helping out defensively into the bargain. He has his limitations but he's perfect for the setup Clarke's designed. Adams can't do any of that. He's a better actual goalscorer and maybe a better passer but he doesn't cover as much ground or play as physical a game as Dykes does. Kroos doesn't get as much time to pick out passes like Rodri didn't if Dykes is pressing him too.
3. And fundamentally, Germany were VERY, VERY good. I was guilty of thinking they weren't in magic form when the draw was made, that opening games are often tight cagey affairs, that they might be nervous in front of their home crowd. They were none of these things. Kroos and Gundogan are class acts, we knew this, but in Wurz and particularly Musiala they have generational talents breaking through and we're absolutely miles off that level. These are Champions League level players and, much as we've the best side we've had this century, only Robertson can really claim to be close to that level. McTominay, McGinn, Tierney are Europa League level players, probably so is McGregor and Gilmour. Maybe even Christie. The rest are hovering between bottom have top tier and top half second tier players.

There's a limit to the amount of that which can be pointed at the coaching and tactics or papered over. We're a good team when everyone's fit and on form but we're not a tier one nation and tier one nations playing well will beat us, they'll hammer us when they play well and we're weakened. Our goalkeepers aren't good enough, our 3rd choice right back isn't good enough. In truth probably none of our centre backs are really good enough and our forward options certainly aren't, but we can't buy new ones. This is international football and we've a limited pool to pick from. Is anyone not playing that should be? Gordon might have been better in goal, even at 41, but he didn't hardly get a club game last season. If Souttar was better than what we had playing he'd have been here. The fabled 'Newcastle Four / Five' would all likely improve us but you can't make them commit to Scotland. Indeed Gordon's made it to the England squad now. Livramento probably will eventually. I doubt Barnes or Anderson or Targett will ever play for England (though Targett is predominantly a left back which isn't a problem position anyway. In fact right back isn't a problem position either with Hickey and Patterson added to Johnston coming through shortly. It's just a horrible coincidence we're short of one for this tournament.

Spot on. It's not about tactics. It's not about finding someone to blame. Just accept that we didn't play a 10/10 game and Germany didn't play a 6/10 game.

[2426255]

6 hours ago, HopeStreetCadette said:

Crazy how performance and tactics can completely shift the narrative. We got hounded that night in the end but I looked at that performance with much more optimism than last night despite it being the same margin of defeat.

The performance against the Netherlands was exceptional. So was the performance against Spain at Hampden. Two different game plans. Both well executed. We weren't able to reach the levels required against Germany to give any tactics a chance. That's the bottom line.

[2426255]

6 hours ago, VictorOnopko said:

I'm not entirely convinced based on last night's drubbing and national humiliation that the current management team know the best tactical approach or how to respond to unfolding shit.

Try basing your thoughts on more than our last game. That'll help you. Look at how the game changed away in Norway for the latter and look at the Spain game at home for the former. Clarke obviously knows how to set up a team at this level.

[FK1Bairn]

10 hours ago, 2426255 said:

 Rangers fans have no love for Clarke, tell me were they happy Scotland got pumped - bet you they were delighted.

I watched the second half in my local bowling club and there was one obvious Rangers fan in there singing God Save The King and he cheered when Germany scored their fifth. The glares he got both times from everybody including the people he was in with meant he left swiftly after the game finished. 

He might have had 5-1 on his coupon but it was definitely a case of being delighted Scotland got pumped. He's probably got a Union Jack flying from his bedroom window

[velo army]

In all the anger and disgust about our performance I forgot about Havertz's penalty kick. Penalties are a bit daft now in that it hands teams a huge advantage. Keepers are glued to their line and they're taken by an expert who may not even have "won" the kick in the first place. 

Havertz essentially stopping mid run-up as the goalie inevitably starts to move shouldn't be allowed. Granted they got a pelanty for an egregious foul right in front of goal, but a player can win one on the edge of the box at the byeline when he's running away from goal. Being able to take a free shot at goal in such a way gives teams too great an advantage.

Edited June 16 by velo army

[Binos]

10 minutes ago, velo army said:

In all the anger and disgust about our performance I forgot about Havertz's penalty kick. Penalties are a bit daft now in that it hands teams a huge advantage. Keepers are glued to their line and they're taken by an expert who may not even have "won" the kick in the first place. 

Havertz essentially stopping mid run-up as the goalie inevitably starts to move shouldn't be allowed. Granted they got a pelanty for an egregious foul right in front of goal, but a player can win one on the edge of the box at the byeline when he's running away from goal. Being able to take a free shot at goal in such a way gives teams too great an advantage.

Correct 

Was not allowed at one point 

[Fratelli]

We didn’t adapt the game in any way with the loss of Dykes. We were hopelessly skelping it up to Adams despite it clearly not working and just bypassing the midfield. Giving them the ball back constantly and allowing them to come at us again. That’s a tactical issue 

Edited June 16 by Fratelli

[HopeStreetCadette]

1 minute ago, Fratelli said:

We didn’t adapt the game in any way with the loss of Dykes. We were hopelessly skelping it up to Adams despite it clearly not working and just bypassing the midfield. Giving them the ball back constantly and allowing them to come at us again. That’s a tactical issue 

I remember one game, think it was Denmark away in the WC qualifiers, where we did similar and got skelped that night too. That’s my worry for Wednesday, does Clarke learn his lesson?

[Ewanandmoreagain]

8 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

What was the worst gap for Scotland?

The one(s) we gave Germany last night or the Darién Gap?

Darien scheme ?

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Fratelli said:

We didn’t adapt the game in any way with the loss of Dykes. We were hopelessly skelping it up to Adams despite it clearly not working and just bypassing the midfield. Giving them the ball back constantly and allowing them to come at us again. That’s a tactical issue 

I didn't feel it was getting skelped long at times in the hope of it leading to anything.

I think it was just done due to the lack of options available.  

[Ewanandmoreagain]

3 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said:

I remember one game, think it was Denmark away in the WC qualifiers, where we did similar and got skelped that night too. That’s my worry for Wednesday, does Clarke learn his lesson?

Was that when Robertson played at RFB. ?

 

and the central defence was **** !

[HopeStreetCadette]

1 minute ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Was that when Robertson played at RFB. ?

 

and the central defence was **** !

Yes, granted this was during the covid era and we had quite a few out due to that

[Bing.McCrosby]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Yes, I'm not pretending I'm more than that. Steve Clarke isn't just a fan or just joe public which is the point you always seem to miss. I think this recent quote sums up my opinion.

Recent quote from Julian Nagelsmann about armchair tacticians out there. Directed towards armchair fans and media.

------------------------------------

In our country it's become quite common for fans to judge players, which I don't like to do because I'm just watching it as a fan. I would never sit in front of the TV and say that I would have done so-and-so as the manager or question what a player is doing, because you don't know what's really going on there. It's a terrible example, but there are teams that are really bad at throw-ins in their own half so a team might have a tactic to kick the ball against an opposing player to force them to have lots of throw-ins in their own half or put the ball out of play themselves. The fans just see a lot of balls going out of play and wonder why that is.

When you don't know what the managers plan is and what they might have intended, it's extremely hard to judge. That's not to say that you're not disappointed as a fan when Germany don't play well in tournaments. But I'm not a manager who sits in front of the TV, judges another manager, is constantly making notes or claims that he would have reacted a certain way or made certain substitutions because I wasn't there.

Julian Nagelsmann

------------------------------------

https://streamable.com/kipkso

Well that was absolutely worthless.

My advice to both you and Julien Nagelsmann would be. If you don't like it fans opinions, stop coming on a fans forum designed specifically for to give opinions.

Also the fan will be correct in some instances and the manager wrong. Wether you or Julian Nagelsmann accepts that or not is irrelevant. It's a a fact.

[accies1874]

47 minutes ago, velo army said:

In all the anger and disgust about our performance I forgot about Havertz's penalty kick. Penalties are a bit daft now in that it hands teams a huge advantage. Keepers are glued to their line and they're taken by an expert who may not even have "won" the kick in the first place. 

Havertz essentially stopping mid run-up as the goalie inevitably starts to move shouldn't be allowed. Granted they got a pelanty for an egregious foul right in front of goal, but a player can win one on the edge of the box at the byeline when he's running away from goal. Being able to take a free shot at goal in such a way gives teams too great an advantage.

Havertz does it all the time. Gunn knew that and tried to feint one way but Havertz could see what he was up to and put it the way he pointed. Havertz held his nerve, whereas someone else this tournament will make a meal of it and folk on here will be hitting out with the "why not just put your foot through it?! patter, so it really just depends on the quality of the taker - just like traditional penalties.

[2426255]

19 minutes ago, Fratelli said:

We didn’t adapt the game in any way with the loss of Dykes. We were hopelessly skelping it up to Adams despite it clearly not working and just bypassing the midfield. Giving them the ball back constantly and allowing them to come at us again. That’s a tactical issue 

 

5 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Well that was absolutely worthless.

My advice to both you and Julien Nagelsmann would be. If you don't like it fans opinions, stop coming on a fans forum designed specifically for to give opinions.

Also the fan will be correct in some instances and the manager wrong. Wether you or Julian Nagelsmann accepts that or not is irrelevant. It's a a fact.

Oh perfect, thanks mate. I was about to make that very point to Fratelli. We don't know what the tactical plan was beyond sitting deep, countering and not risking the ball in our own third. It obviously didn't go according to the plan, but the idea or concept isn't necessarily wrong just because the execution wasn't there. That's what Nagelsmann was trying to say.

Perhaps it just wasn't on to play a possession game against Germany and Adams is simply the best of a poor bunch of choices to fill that role. I haven't a clue, but there's no doubt in my mind if Dykes has been available he'd have started.

Spoiler

Recent quote from Julian Nagelsmann about armchair tacticians out there. Directed towards armchair fans and media.

------------------------------------

In our country it's become quite common for fans to judge players, which I don't like to do because I'm just watching it as a fan. I would never sit in front of the TV and say that I would have done so-and-so as the manager or question what a player is doing, because you don't know what's really going on there. It's a terrible example, but there are teams that are really bad at throw-ins in their own half so a team might have a tactic to kick the ball against an opposing player to force them to have lots of throw-ins in their own half or put the ball out of play themselves. The fans just see a lot of balls going out of play and wonder why that is.

When you don't know what the managers plan is and what they might have intended, it's extremely hard to judge. That's not to say that you're not disappointed as a fan when Germany don't play well in tournaments. But I'm not a manager who sits in front of the TV, judges another manager, is constantly making notes or claims that he would have reacted a certain way or made certain substitutions because I wasn't there.

Julian Nagelsmann

------------------------------------

https://streamable.com/kipkso

Edited June 16 by 2426255

[Ewanandmoreagain]

11 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

Dont care if it was clarke or anyone else, he got it wrong, both player choice and tactics

People can moan about the lack of press, energy etc, but when you pick 3 centre halves to mark one man while 5 of they best midfielders in the world stroll about against 4 of your team, there will be no press and the energy quickly evaporates as players feel it's a pointless effort

IIRC when we drew 0 - 0 with the Netherlands at a Euros ( " hand of John Collins " ) Craig Brown changed our successful back five to a back four because the Dutch played with two wingers

It appeared to be successful 

He did not have to fit both Tierney and Robertson into the same team !

Our only semi good players

[No_Problemo]

If we are talking about Nagelsmann quotes, it’s probably quite important to consider what he thought of our actual approach on Friday night, and how he thought it was more passive than our normal approach in qualifying. 
 

"I was surprised that Scotland weren't that aggressive in the first 20 minutes. I think they were kind of surprised of our ball possession. It was really concentrated. We only made one mistake in the first 15 minutes and Scotland was kind of surprised, kind of afraid. It felt that way against offensive players who can score goals, and they defended a bit deeper. They didn't make the high pressure like they did in the qualifying games. The first 20 minutes were key for the game."