What is the point of labour ?

[BFTD]

16 hours ago, Crùbag said:

Yeah, most people on benefits are already in work apparently. Labour must know this. Just more Tory policies from these utter barstewards. Sarwar a millionaire too that exploited workers on pitiful wages in his company firm.

The next trick is going to be sanctioning people in full-time work for not finding better paid employment. I don't think most people realise (or care) just how sanction-happy the DWP has become.

For all I know, they've already got cracking on that. When I was receiving £27 a month in Universal Credit, I got a summons to the local Job Centre to discuss what I was doing to find better paid employment, my answer to which was, "aye, I'm totally going to take a day off work to justify to you c***s why I'm only earning minimum wage". Thankfully they seemed to forget about that bullshit during the pandemic.

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

Labour in 1997 got a few years where most people were just relieved and delighted not to have the Conservative Party running the country. It probably helped that they had a few American policies that the Tories swore would destroy the universe, like minimum wage and Tax Credits, before they realised how much business liked the idea of the exchequer paying at least part of their employee's wages.

Labour have no similarly popular policies this time, and there's no economic good times on the horizon. I'm not sure anyone's expecting anything from them though, it's just that the Tories have become so sickening and overtly self-interested that they need to be "punished". We'll be getting right back to "what are you going to do about <minority group>?" at some point, and Labour's reaction that that will be very interesting. I don't think Sirkeef has the stones to inflict the punishments that the public would like, and everyone's waited far too long to try outdated strategies like "logic" and "reason".

[Jedi2]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

So Labour essentially get what..a few weeks, months? to overturn the Tory damage of 14 years before they are dismissed as 'useless/just pandering to the right wing media/no different to the Tories'

 

 

[BFTD]

Bless.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

On 20/06/2024 at 21:41, O'Kelly Isley III said:

In terms of UK politics, dictated by the massive English electorate, I'm much less concerned about the fracturing of parties than I am about the direction of travel of policies and discourse.

It's taken longer than I anticipated but the UK has finally arrived at the US norm of two main right-wing parties, one ever more extreme and the other being incrementally dragged ever more rightwards whilst it still masquerades as a social democratic alternative.

As such there is little by way of a centre-left choice, with the Liberals and the others unable to reach a critical mass.  It's a pretty depressing situation if that's what you seek.

 

Edited June 26 by O'Kelly Isley III

[BFTD]

Wait, are we quoting the Express as a factual news source now?

Definitely taking out that Sunday Sport subscription. That'll learn you all.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jedi2 said:

So Labour essentially get what..a few weeks, months? to overturn the Tory damage of 14 years before they are dismissed as 'useless/just pandering to the right wing media/no different to the Tories'

 

 

If you’re going to respond to my posts then respond to what I said.

[BFTD]

10 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If you’re going to respond to my posts then respond to what I said.

What, Kier Starmer is the reincarnation of Hitler, you say? Outrageous.

Also, SNP bad? This isn't like you at all, Granny.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, BFTD said:

What, Kier Starmer is the reincarnation of Hitler, you say? Outrageous.

Also, SNP bad? This isn't like you at all, Granny.

You’re ability to read between the lines is a thing of beauty Dave.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

2 hours ago, Sheas_cake said:

The two child cap is applied to Universal Credit which the Scottish Government have no power to change in this respect. The article actually states the Scottish Government could increase Scottish Child Payment to cover the shortfall (knowing full well this is not practical), but regardless the cap will still exist, because families with more than two children will still have their Universal Credit child element capped. 

In short, you're lying. 

That’s very disingenuous, and Jedi isn’t lying at all.

The fact of the matter is that Neil Lovat is correct.  Families in Scotland could receive this money if the SNP wanted them to.

Edited June 26 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[Cheese]

 

[Jedi2]

6 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

The Labour apologists should make the most of the next couple of weeks because we will soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses.  Starmer & Co. will be exposed for the weak willed, Tory Lite mob they are and over the coming five years the electorate will realise they were suckered and become more disillusioned with politics.

 I’ve long been worried that the U.K. (or in truth England) would become to reflect the U.S.A. where the only ‘credible’ choice would be between a very right-wing political party and a fairly right-wing political party leaving many voters effectively disenfranchised.  We’ve pretty much reached that point.

'Soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses'

How would you go about spending when debt to GDP is at 98% (Genuine question).

Much more borrowing obviously takes it up over 100%. Onve that happens you run the risk of panic on international money markets, making thr pound less competitive, and pushing up interest rates. Tax rises naturally, always an option, but is it right to raise income taxes on folk with less cash?

So where do Labour find the money? Already have Windfall Tax on oil and gas profits and VAT on private schools (both opposed by the likes of Kate Forbes), as well as higher taxes on property developers.

The Tories have left us in a position with Brexit, Truss as well as low growth, where the economy is a complete mess.

 

That takes time to address and yes, unfortunately requires levering private investment by the govt to make up shortfalls.

The B of E can't just keep printing money without hiking interest rates with the knock on effect effect on prices and mortgages (again).

In fairness you do also cite 'the next five years' but it's going to take time to make the right spending choices and bring in investment. No govt could simply be splurging the cash right away in current circumstances.

[Granny Danger]

19 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

'Soon enter a period of government where there will be no excuses'

How would you go about spending when debt to GDP is at 98% (Genuine question).

Much more borrowing obviously takes it up over 100%. Onve that happens you run the risk of panic on international money markets, making thr pound less competitive, and pushing up interest rates. Tax rises naturally, always an option, but is it right to raise income taxes on folk with less cash?

So where do Labour find the money? Already have Windfall Tax on oil and gas profits and VAT on private schools (both opposed by the likes of Kate Forbes), as well as higher taxes on property developers.

The Tories have left us in a position with Brexit, Truss as well as low growth, where the economy is a complete mess.

 

That takes time to address and yes, unfortunately requires levering private investment by the govt to make up shortfalls.

The B of E can't just keep printing money without hiking interest rates with the knock on effect effect on prices and mortgages (again).

In fairness you do also cite 'the next five years' but it's going to take time to make the right spending choices and bring in investment. No govt could simply be splurging the cash right away in current circumstances.

If they can’t improve things then why bother?  Seriously?

It’s reminiscent of one of my pet peeves, people going for a top job (chief constable, head teacher, etc.) then as soon as their appointed they complain about how hard the job is.

Introduce a wealth tax, scrap Trident, stop tax avoidance by multi-national companies, hire people directly in the NHS rather than paying exorbitant agency fees and borrow more and spend on infrastructure.

I’m not expecting miracles in the short term (which is probably just as well) but I’m pretty convinced that towards the end of the first five year term we will see minimal improvements in areas such as housing, general poverty, child poverty, and the NHS.

[Jedi2]

Don't disagree on any of the measures listed. 

A wealth tax of an Increase of 1% on the top earners would bring in around £5.5 billion per year.

Tax Avoidance by multinationals in the UK could claw back £11.5 billion a year

And Trident running costs £3 billion a year.

No harm in bringing in an extra £20 odd billion with these measures. (And I appreciate that Labour aim to keep Trident and not increase income taxes).

Closing non-dom loopholes, as Labour propose is worth about £4 billion a year.

The issue with the debt remains the current high interest on govt repayments and costing that £112 billion this year (roughly equivalent to the whole Education budget).

Labour will still borrow (they will have to), and compared to the Tories the spend should go towards the NHS, poverty, and housing etc (the aim to tax property developer profits to fund 1.5 million new homes is a good one).

I agree that there probably won't be 'miracles' but still a definite upgrade and improvement on the last 14 years.

 

Edited June 26 by Jedi2

[Cheese]

Labour have got their messaging spot on in this election, alternating between change is coming, change is good and f**k you nothing will be changing very much at all you rubes.

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, Cheese said:

 

The UK is full, with 67m people in 243,000 square km. But Bangladesh is fine with 104m more people in 95,000 sq km less. I mean i say that, but it's getting less all the time what with the sinking, erosion and flooding. 

It's also a country that we exploited for a couple of centuries and formerly part of a state that we set up violently and ill advisedly when we retreated from the Empire. 

Important to be tough on immigrants though. If they didn't want horrible lives they should have been born in the first world. 

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, Cheese said:

 

This guy also just blurts out Bangladesh. Must be the party line.

[coprolite]

58 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

Don't disagree on any of the measures listed. 

A wealth tax of an Increase of 1% on the top earners would bring in around £5.5 billion per year.

Tax Avoidance by multinationals in the UK could claw back £11.5 billion a year

And Trident running costs £3 billion a year.

No harm in bringing in an extra £20 odd billion with these measures. (And I appreciate that Labour aim to keep Trident and not increase income taxes).

Closing non-dom loopholes, as Labour propose is worth about £4 billion a year.

The issue with the debt remains the current high interest on govt repayments and costing that £112 billion this year (roughly equivalent to the whole Education budget).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Labour will still borrow (they will have to), and compared to the Tories the spend should go towards the NHS, poverty, and housing etc (the aim to tax property developer profits to fund 1.5 million new homes is a good one).

 

I agree that there probably won't be 'miracles' but still a definite upgrade and improvement on the last 14 years.

 

Those money raising ideas are trivial in scale, extremely dubious on effect (although i don't know about trident, but thats a cost saving).

The non-dom "loophole" closure was in the last Tory budget, although they probably only did that to annoy Labour. 

Wealth tax at that level has been tried and abandoned by other European countries before. It's expensive to administer and easy to avoid. International co operation and co ordination is vital and i can't imagine the US being on board any time soon. 

Big corporate tax avoidance. 11 bn? Just pie in the sky. 

They've chosen these things because they don't cost voters anything so they can pretend someone else will pay. 

I am hopeful that the "no tax on working people" thing means that they might start taxing unearned income and gains properly and in line with earnings. Starting with capital gains tax. Putting the equivalent of NI on dividends and interest would be great too.  

But they've made a rod for their own backs by lacking the courage to be honest and to get locked into silly posturing on tax. 

[DrewDon]

I get that politicians will say more or less anything to get a vote, but a big problem for Scottish Labour since 2014 is that so many of them seem like they only care about beating the SNP, and actually stand for nothing other than being anti-independence. It's not even clear that some of them actually understand that they are supposed to dislike what the Tories are doing to the country, because at least they are pro-union. 

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

So where do Labour find the money? Already have Windfall Tax on oil and gas profits and VAT on private schools (both opposed by the likes of Kate Forbes), as well as higher taxes on property developers.

Jedi just can't help lying!

The SNP manifesto specifically states "We have already removed charitable rates relief from private schools in Scotland, and with full powers over VAT we would go further and end the exemption for private schools."

As a cabinet member, Kate Forbes is bound by the manifesto. It's not like the Scottish Labour branch office 'opposing' London HQ dictats. 

Edited June 26 by lichtgilphead
formatting

[Jedi2]

Kate Forbes on QT recently said she personally didn't think VAT on private schools was a good idea. You will note I never mentioned the SNP manifesto.

So, it's you who is in fact lying (again)