Too wee, poor and stupid

[git-intae-thum]

12 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

I think this is the main weakness to the independence movement. The idea that everything is to be left until after independence and until then we must be all things to all people for fear of alienating a single potential voter constituency. This leaves the movement with nothing to offer except saltires. No rallying points and no substance. For many of these Labour voters in the recent election, independence just being exactly the same but with a saltire instead of a union jack is not going to move them. Independence needs to promise transformational change.

In all these "what makes you proud of your nation?" UK polls, Brits don't vote for the flag, the Royal Family or even the military. The NHS comes out on top every time. Material political accomplishment is what folk find most empowering. The SNP should make the Scottish people owning Scottish energy their rallying call.

Much complaining has been done about SNP supposedly prioritising cultural and social issues in recent times. Yet they do that because they have to offer an alternative to Westminster and given they refuse to promote an economic alternative, that only leaves social and cultural issues. Then the same folk who refuse to countenance a transformational economic programme by the SNP end up complaining loudest about the social and cultural issues when its their obstinance causing that strategy in the first place.

Pre 2015. The SNP, as the de facto leading element of the movement, was hugely successful because it did exactly that. It introduced real change that improved people's lives. It combined a raft of popular policy and initiatives along with a real push to attain independence. The party and the movement had real purpose and momentum.

Post 2015, has been almost the reverse of the above.

 

[coprolite]

On 19/08/2024 at 23:59, GTee said:

Was  clearly steaming when I started this. Pretty boozy now. I think what I was trying to get to. The argument against Scottish Independence is pretty much Too wee too poor and to stupid.

Is there a different argument, that someone could convey.

It's all a bit pointless really. 

[Enigma]

The British “tradition” of running another country in order to extract its natural resources very much alive it seems…

[Wee-Bey]

2 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

Socially, England has a north and south divide and maintains a class system. Scotland, being smaller, is one Nation.

This is nonsense. Scotland also has a north/south divide and a class system.

[DonnieMurdo]

2 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

Culturally, Scotland and England are easily identified as two separate nations.

Socially, England has a north and south divide and maintains a class system. Scotland, being smaller, is one Nation.

Scotland maintains a Scottish Judiciary system based on evidence presented whereas the English legal system is based on precedent.

There are so many differences which separates the two.

For centuries Westminster and other english establishments have attempted to define the two nations as one and have failed.

I agree with most of this, but as an Islander / Highlander,  I would suggest Scotland does have a North / South divide.

Edinburgh has treated the Gaels with contempt for centuries, and central belt biases, although more implicit now, are still very much apparent in how this country is governed. 

In my opinion.

[Freedom Farter]

59 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Pre 2015. The SNP, as the de facto leading element of the movement, was hugely successful because it did exactly that. It introduced real change that improved people's lives. It combined a raft of popular policy and initiatives along with a real push to attain independence. The party and the movement had real purpose and momentum.

Post 2015, has been almost the reverse of the above.

 

This goes into some of what we've discussed. I don't know how correct or not it is but it's hopefully at least worth the read:

https://www.independencecaptured.org.uk/all-articles/snp-crisis

[SandyCromarty]

I've posted along the same lines as above many times, universally Scotland is recognised as a Nation with a clearly defined cultural identity.

Present a citizen of any nation to identify one Scottish unique item of identity and it could be answered immediately. Now to us Scots it's a bit off but it is a fact that Scotland is regarded universally as a stand alone nation and many are baffled with this united kingdom/great Britain tag.

And this post, as it always does will attract the usual minority yoons and staunch sectarian.

BUT, do not be fooled into Westminster obedience because of recent election results as The INDEPENDENCE flag still flies high and STRONG.

[itzdrk]

Scotland is undoubtedly too stupid. 

[DonnieMurdo]

1 hour ago, SandyCromarty said:

I've posted along the same lines as above many times, universally Scotland is recognised as a Nation with a clearly defined cultural identity.

Present a citizen of any nation to identify one Scottish unique item of identity and it could be answered immediately. Now to us Scots it's a bit off but it is a fact that Scotland is regarded universally as a stand alone nation and many are baffled with this united kingdom/great Britain tag.

And this post, as it always does will attract the usual minority yoons and staunch sectarian.

BUT, do not be fooled into Westminster obedience because of recent election results as The INDEPENDENCE flag still flies high and STRONG.

'Minority yoon' being the term used for the Higlanders by the ruling classes in Edinburgh??

Perhaps Scottish  'Identity' can be immediately named in a Walter Scott / Shortbread Tin / Outlander kind of way, but suggesting, for example, that a Borderer and a Hebridean share a clear cultural identity seems wrong to me.

The Independence flag is fluttering limply at the moment.

It makes no difference to me if I am governed from Westminster or Holyrood - they are one and the same.

[sparky88]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

Scotland is undoubtedly too stupid. 

After Hyslop's reverse ferret on off peak trains, too poor as well.

[TONTROOPER]

On 19/08/2024 at 22:12, git-intae-thum said:

Agreed.. but we will never have an energy company owned by the Scottish public under the current constitutional arrangements.

No red or blue Tory gov is ever going to devolve energy policy to the Scottish parliament..... 

They realise what a tremendous boost it could allow to the Scottish economy at the expense of the SE.

They can't be having that.

Which is pretty much what The McCrone Report  said regarding the discovery of North Sea oil.

So they hid it 'under lock & key' via the 30year rule. 

[SandyCromarty]

40 minutes ago, DonnieMurdo said:

'Minority yoon' being the term used for the Higlanders by the ruling classes in Edinburgh??

Perhaps Scottish  'Identity' can be immediately named in a Walter Scott / Shortbread Tin / Outlander kind of way, but suggesting, for example, that a Borderer and a Hebridean share a clear cultural identity seems wrong to me.

The Independence flag is fluttering limply at the moment.

It makes no difference to me if I am governed from Westminster or Holyrood - they are one and the same.

Lost cause.

[lichtgilphead]

8 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I just think it's natural to have an attachment to your homeland and wasn't really intending on picking out specific events from history.

Our traditions are our ways of being that have evolved over thousands of years and which we adhere to both consciously and subconsciously.

So, you're just providing vague soundbites rather than actually being able to name one solitary thing that I can value & cherish about my so-called British identity. That's some advert for the Union.

I'll bite again though. Given your use of "thousands", can you name one British tradition from two or more millenia ago?

Here's a map of the island of Great Britain in AD 43, divided into various groupings.

 

Perhaps you can give details of the British traditions we consiously or unconciously adhere to from (say) the Durotriges or the Coritani?

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

2 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

So, you're just providing vague soundbites rather than actually being able to name one solitary thing that I can value & cherish about my so-called British identity. That's some advert for the Union.

I'll bite again though. Given your use of "thousands", can you name one British tradition from two or more millenia ago?

Here's a map of the island of Great Britain in AD 43, divided into various groupings.

 

Perhaps you can give details of the British traditions we consiously or unconciously adhere to from (say) the Durotriges or the Coritani?

Yes, the tradition of standing stones and similar types of monuments.

Stonehenge is a fine example of us pooling and sharing resources around 5000 years ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna166265

[Wee-Bey]

32 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Yes, the tradition of standing stones and similar types of monuments.

Stonehenge is a fine example of us pooling and sharing resources around 5000 years ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna166265

Didn't think a good Christian man like yourself would be extolling the virtues of heathen pagan collectivism.

[lichtgilphead]

21 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Yes, the tradition of standing stones and similar types of monuments.

Stonehenge is a fine example of us pooling and sharing resources around 5000 years ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna166265

Yep, there's nothing better to make you feel British than looking at standing stones.

I specifically remember visiting the standing stones at Carnac in Brittany, and admiring the skills of the totally non-French workforce. I was super-pwoud to be British.

A couple of minutes research shows that standing stones are found on all 5 continents - are you really implying that Great Btitish workers built them all?

Is that really the best shared traditon you can come up with?

 

[Binos]

3 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

So, you're just providing vague soundbites rather than actually being able to name one solitary thing that I can value & cherish about my so-called British identity. That's some advert for the Union.

I'll bite again though. Given your use of "thousands", can you name one British tradition from two or more millenia ago?

Here's a map of the island of Great Britain in AD 43, divided into various groupings.

 

Perhaps you can give details of the British traditions we consiously or unconciously adhere to from (say) the Durotriges or the Coritani?

Cheese on toast?

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, Binos said:

Cheese on toast?

Croque Monsieur?

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

35 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Didn't think a good Christian man like yourself would be extolling the virtues of heathen pagan collectivism.

I love people of all faiths, creeds and cheeses  

 

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

37 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yep, there's nothing better to make you feel British than looking at standing stones.

I specifically remember visiting the standing stones at Carnac in Brittany, and admiring the skills of the totally non-French workforce. I was super-pwoud to be British.

A couple of minutes research shows that standing stones are found on all 5 continents - are you really implying that Great Btitish workers built them all?

Is that really the best shared traditon you can come up with?

 

No, I don’t think Brits built all the standing stones on all 5 continents

Edited August 22 by CarrbridgeSaintee