Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[sophia]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Israel are b*****ds. They are bombing the West Bank and other civilians, they are not targeting Hamas. This is not the same as calling Jewish people b*****ds. It's also not an excuse for Hamas to carry out what they did. Ram your anti-semetic pish up your arse along with your "downvote me coz am an edgelord c**t" pish. 

Would it not be fairer to say the Israeli government?

[oneteaminglasgow]

The issue with giving Israel, or more specifically the IDF, the benefit of the doubt is that there’s a litany of examples of them blaming Hamas for stuff that looks bad only to turn backtrack when it becomes obvious that it was them. Shireen Abu Akleh’s murder is one example, but there are clearly others. 

[coprolite]

21 minutes ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

I thought that it was likely Israel that bombed the hospital because they've got previous. That is clear bias on my part, and i freely admit it. 

My judgement of that particular incident wasn’t made by impartially weighing up the evidence. It was made pretty much subconsciously based on limited and prior knowledge. Like almost every judgement everyone ever makes. 

If a lot of other people also made that same judgement then that suggests that there's probably a well known pattern of historical behaviour that people are using as a cognitive shortcut to reaching a conclusion. 

I'd suggest that that's a more likely source of "bias" than antisemitic feeling. 

I also have no idea what Hamas claimed. I mean i guess the claimed Israel did it but i haven't seen their claim. 

I've also not evaluated the contrary claims and doubt I'll ever be in a position to really do that satisfactorily. 

Reaching an obvious conclusion about something isn't the same as "swallowing Hamas BS." 

Bias is an unavoidable feature of human judgement. It doesn't necessarily come from religious intolerance. 

 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

You have your major media outlets, your political parties, and the benefactors of both all agreeing with you. Yet you're outraged that in this tiny, completely insignificant and powerless corner of the internet, you've come across some dissent. 

[Leith Green]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

My initial detail came from a WHO tweet which had a press release.  Its now been adjusted to remove the very specific allegation that it was Israel, but I have posted it below. In the initial tweet it said the attack was by Israel.

So it wasnt Hamas, it was the WHO (and also the Anglican church) who initially pointed to Israel.

WHO strongly condemns the attack on Al Ahli Arab Hospital in the north of the Gaza Strip. The hospital was operational, with patients, health and care givers, and internally displaced people sheltering there. Early reports indicate hundreds of fatalities and injuries.

The hospital was one of 20 in the north of the Gaza Strip facing evacuation orders from the Israeli military. The order for evacuation has been impossible to carry out given the current insecurity, critical condition of many patients, and lack of ambulances, staff, health system bed capacity, and alternative shelter for those displaced.

WHO calls for the immediate active protection of civilians and health care. Evacuation orders must be reversed. International humanitarian law must be abided by, which means health care must be actively protected and never targeted.

[beefybake]

12 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

You have your major media outlets, your political parties, and the benefactors of both all agreeing with you. Yet you're outraged that in this tiny, completely insignificant and powerless corner of the internet, you've come across some dissent. 

I watched Ch4 news last night. They spoke to several people who survived the hospital blast. Those people said they had received warnings/threats from Israel over several days prior that the hospital would be attacked.

There was a recording presented by Israel that they said was part of a conversation between two Hamas people.

In it, one person said that the explosion was one of theirs. The other person said to blame it on Islamic Jihad.

Ch4 then said that they had presented the recording to two Palestininan ( I think ) experts who said it was fake , and obviously so.

Dialects, intonations all wrong.

Edited October 19, 2023 by beefybake

[printer]

21 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

I fucking hate “the west” it’s unreal how sycophantic they are to the Israeli government. 

For sure what Hamas did a week past Saturday was disgraceful, but the most militarised country on the globe indiscriminately bombing civilians with no urging of restraint from western powers is an absolute disgrace. 

It isn't really sycophancy. They are protecting their own interests to retain influence in the area including control of the oil. Having Israel onside is a crucial aspect of that.

US leads and UK and the rest follow. 

Eta For the sake of clarity, I'm not saying I agree with that.

Edited October 19, 2023 by printer

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, sophia said:

Would it not be fairer to say the Israeli government?

I thought it was clear when I mentioned the acts being carried out that I was talking about their government, I'm not saying all Israelis are bombing the West Bank or all Israelis are b*****ds.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I thought it was clear when I mentioned the acts being carried out that I was talking about their government, I'm not saying all Israelis are bombing the West Bank or all Israelis are b*****ds.

Not all Israelis are b*****ds, but the majority of the ones who vote apparently are.

[Billy Jean King]

"This is the worlds darkest hour".  Absolutely mental rhetoric from the Israeli PM there.

[Jaggy McJagface]

34 minutes ago, beefybake said:

I watched Ch4 news last night. They spoke to several people who survived the hospital blast. Those people said they had received warnings/threats from Israel over several days prior that the hospital would be attacked.

There was a recording presented by Israel that they said was part of a conversation between two Hamas people.

In it, one person said that the explosion was one of theirs. The other person said to blame it on Islamic Jihad.

Ch4 then said that they had presented the recording to two Palestininan ( I think ) experts who said it was fake , and obviously so.

Dialects, intonations all wrong.

The balance of evidence in terms of the ballistics seem to imply it was in all likelihood a Gazan rocket rather than an Israeli airstrike, however the fact that the Israelis are clearly lying about or embellishing some aspects means you can be forgiven for not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

It’s a bit like the boy who cried wolf I suppose. The IDF have previous for completely making things up and blaming things on Palestinians, with the memory of the Al Jazeera journalist they killed being a perfect example.

 

The first casualty of war is truth, and I don’t think we should take Israeli or Hamas claims at face value as they both have a vested interest in lying about things.

[Granny Danger]

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?

[10menwent2mow]

14 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

"This is the worlds darkest hour".  Absolutely mental rhetoric from the Israeli PM there.

Correct. Has he just conveniently forgotten about the 6 million of his own folk wiped out less than 100 years ago. 

[Billy Jean King]

2 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:

Correct. Has he just conveniently forgotten about the 6 million of his own folk wiped out less than 100 years ago. 

His speech gives me the fear. Extremely incendiary stuff good v bad, Islam must be defeated, world on the brink. Grim attempts to widen this specifically aimed at Iran and all in the presence of Sunak & co.

[beefybake]

15 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

The balance of evidence in terms of the ballistics seem to imply it was in all likelihood a Gazan rocket rather than an Israeli airstrike, however the fact that the Israelis are clearly lying about or embellishing some aspects means you can be forgiven for not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

It’s a bit like the boy who cried wolf I suppose. The IDF have previous for completely making things up and blaming things on Palestinians, with the memory of the Al Jazeera journalist they killed being a perfect example.

 

The first casualty of war is truth, and I don’t think we should take Israeli or Hamas claims at face value as they both have a vested interest in lying about things.

The subject of my comment was a recording. And it was being examined by two experts, Palestinian ( I think ).  Not Hamas.

They also referred to the horizontal arc of the missile that air exploded shortly before, as being not equating to it landing on the hospital.

As I recall, the Ch4 news segment ended with saying that the recording needed independent investigation.

 

Me ?   It seems odd that if either Hamas or Islamic Juhad had access to something that could cause all that damage, they would

have used it long ago, rather than the rockets into Israel that they have typically used which have caused relatively minor damage to buildings,

and very, very occasionally a handful of deaths.

Er, yes, I have heard of the fog of war.

[Leith Green]

18 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?

Israel has an excellent anti missile defence system - paid for by the USA as it happens.

Its not foolproof, but it captures ~90% of rocket attacks.

Its called Iron Dome, I think?

[Leith Green]

Posted without comment...................

11:53   

Sunak adds that he knows Israel is "taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas which seek to put civilians in harm's way".

12:14
Over 3,700 people killed in Gaza - health officials
We've had some updated figures from the health ministry in Gaza, who say at least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October.

Among those killed, 1,524 were children, 1,000 were women, and 120 were elderly, they say.

A total of 12,493 have been injured, the health officials added.

[Billy Jean King]

9 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Posted without comment...................

11:53   

Sunak adds that he knows Israel is "taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas which seek to put civilians in harm's way".

12:14
Over 3,700 people killed in Gaza - health officials
We've had some updated figures from the health ministry in Gaza, who say at least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October.

Among those killed, 1,524 were children, 1,000 were women, and 120 were elderly, they say.

A total of 12,493 have been injured, the health officials added.

I'd hate to see them being indiscriminate  !

[Jaggy McJagface]

14 minutes ago, beefybake said:

The subject of my comment was a recording. And it was being examined by two experts, Palestinian ( I think ).  Not Hamas.

They also referred to the horizontal arc of the missile that air exploded shortly before, as being not equating to it landing on the hospital.

As I recall, the Ch4 news segment ended with saying that the recording needed independent investigation.

 

Me ?   It seems odd that if either Hamas or Islamic Juhad had access to something that could cause all that damage, they would

have used it long ago, rather than the rockets into Israel that they have typically used which have caused relatively minor damage to buildings,

and very, very occasionally a handful of deaths.

Er, yes, I have heard of the fog of war.

I’m not disagreeing with you. The fact the Israelis are clearly lying about the recording is very suspicious. My point is that Israel have previous for lying about things like this and are certainly lying about certain aspects now. They have shown that they certainly don’t mind bombing refugee convoys so I’m not meaning this to come across as a defence of the IDF.

On the other hand, many independent weapons experts seem to think that the crater and surrounding damage isn’t typical of an Israeli air strike and is more likely to be a faulty missile, although most concede it’s hard to say for certain. The fog of war means that we probably won’t know with absolute certainty what happened in this particular instance.

 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?

Because it 1) wasn’t accurate, it hit a parking lot and 2) because parking lots are filed with cars that contain lots of explosive and flammable bits?

Of course, that’s IF it was a misplaced rocket…still unclear, but the only data that comes from both sides and is confirmed by third party pictures is 1) a parking lot, of a hospital, was hit, not the hospital itself, and 2) a small crater was left.