Granny Danger Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, Donathan said: My point about Dresden wasn’t to compare it to the current situation. I’m just saying that there’s a situation where people might be inclined to agree that carpet bombing a civilian populace can sometimes be justified. Regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is it not widely acknowledged that beating Japan conventionally would have taken 1-2 years and cost the Americans tens of thousands of soldiers? Tens of thousands of soldiers compared to 300,000 to 400,000 mostly civilians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, welshbairn said: The continuing bombardment of Gaza and the West Bank will almost certainly put an end to any rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, Morocco, some Gulf countries and possibly Turkey, which was probably the primary intention of Hamas. Publicly maybe but privately the Saudis and Israelis will still be talking. Both view Iran as an existential threat, for different reasons. The maxim, the enemy of my enemy is my friend is very much at play. Edited October 22, 2023 by Trogdor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donathan Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Tens of thousands of soldiers compared to 300,000 to 400,000 mostly civilians. Right, but worth remembering this was during the days of conscription. The soldiers were just men that had been drafted into the army rather than the current situation where anyone in the army has actively chosen to be there. Besides, you’re talking about enemy civilians versus your own soldiers. This source actually suggests that the American soldier death toll would have gone into seven figures (and also that a ground invasion would have killed many times more Japanese people than the nuclear bombs did) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 5 minutes ago, Donathan said: Right, but worth remembering this was during the days of conscription. The soldiers were just men that had been drafted into the army rather than the current situation where anyone in the army has actively chosen to be there. Besides, you’re talking about enemy civilians versus your own soldiers. This source actually suggests that the American soldier death toll would have gone into seven figures (and also that a ground invasion would have killed many times more Japanese people than the nuclear bombs did) What source? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, Donathan said: Right, but worth remembering this was during the days of conscription. The soldiers were just men that had been drafted into the army rather than the current situation where anyone in the army has actively chosen to be there. Besides, you’re talking about enemy civilians versus your own soldiers. This source actually suggests that the American soldier death toll would have gone into seven figures (and also that a ground invasion would have killed many times more Japanese people than the nuclear bombs did) Not sure every person currently serving in the US military has ‘actively chosen’ that life. Many will see it as the only way out of poverty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MazzyStar Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Not sure every person currently serving in the US military has ‘actively chosen’ that life. Many will see it as the only way out of poverty. Doesn’t make being a willing participant in the US empire any less problematic. Edited October 22, 2023 by MazzyStar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 The Soviet entry into the theatre alongside an effective naval blockade and conventional bombing would have seen Japan's eventual surrender imo. It just would have taken a bit longer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Hiroshima might be explainable as a way to quickly end the war, but Nagasaki was an experiment to see how uranium compared to plutonium imo. It's not like they'd easily get another chance any time soon with real people and buildings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 On an optimistic note, who would have thought that 78 years after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, with numerous states now capable of launching nuclear weapons, nobody has done so. Small crumbles of hope for humanity when morality seems to have come to whether it's better to kill children from 30,000 feet or face to face with a gun or knife. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 10 minutes ago, ForzaViola said: Getting a touch off-topic here but I'm fairly sure the experiences of the yank military in taking Iwo Jima and Okinawa at very high casualty rate and the inhabitants willingness to die taking as many soldiers with them as possible probably made Truman's decision to use the A-bombs pretty easy. I'm not sure conventional bombing would have done the trick - the USAAF firebombed several major cities in 1944/45, killing tens of thousands of people and destroying hundreds of square miles of housing. Even after the A-bombs it took the apparent intervention of Hirohito to finally surrender. [...] Anyway back to the topic. If this operation is about eradicating Hamas in Gaza and Hamas are largely irrelevant in the West Bank, why is the IDF launching air strikes in the West Bank? Well, the IDF's policy seems to be "If the terrorists hide among civilians, then the civilians are the terrorists". They never said there were any regional limits to that. As for the Hirohito point - he shat it after Nagasaki because he (correctly) guessed that Tokyo was next, or, if not, getting hit soon. He had already offered a conditional surrender to America before and after Hiroshima, but it was Nagasaki that really forced him to surrender unconditionally. Not for poor Nagasaki's sake. Just for him and Tokyo's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, welshbairn said: On an optimistic note, who would have thought that 78 years after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, with numerous states now capable of launching nuclear weapons, nobody has done so. Small crumbles of hope for humanity when morality seems to have come to whether it's better to kill children from 30,000 feet or face to face with a gun or knife. It's quite ironic but also incredibly human that the most destructive weapons ever created is also what has prevented any major global conflict - and thus millions upon millions of deaths - for almost 80 years. Humans - a funny ol' species. Edited October 22, 2023 by ClydeTon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 10 minutes ago, ClydeTon said: Humans - a funny ol' species. Really? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Donathan said: Purely out of interest, what were the general public attitudes in the UK towards the carpet bombing of Dresden and other German cities? You've picked up this talking point from the Israeli spokesmen whose TV interviews you've listened to. It was probably Naftali Bennett you watched/heard as he's yelled about Dresden in multiple interviews now. It's a completely shit point and literal war propaganda. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Here's an example: His special military operation to denazify Gaza. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 The Israeli government has confirmed to Al-Jazeera that Hamas offered to release two of the hostages without demands for a prisoner exchange in return, and they said no because they didn't want to give Hamas a propaganda victory in being able to claim they were behaving in a humanitarian fashion. Deeply reassuring to those hostages and their families I'm sure. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 8 hours ago, ClydeTon said: The Yanks would have just bombed the life out of Japan - in much the same way they tried in Germany with Hamburg, Dresden, etc. They'd have achieved the effect the A-Bombs had, just using a barrage of conventional bombs, and/or a (greater) firebombing campaign. It's widely belived that Truman dropped the bomb to stick the fear into both Japan and the Soviets, and to show America's newly discovered power. When Enola Gay approached Hiroshima, the Japanese did not bother sending up anything to intercept it. What harm could one plane do? Until then the Japanese were prepared for a fight to the death. What was the point when tens of thousands on the ground were killed but not a single person on the plane was harmed? Ultimately the two bombs persuaded a supposedly powerless emperor it was time to end the war before the next one landed on his house. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 They’re still giving out the purple hearts minted in 1945 in anticipation of an invasion of the Japanese home islands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 On the brilliant World at War documentary they said they Japanese head yins had got the public into such a state of panic about what the yanks would do to the population that they would have fought to the death. It even showed woman throwing themselves of cliffs on Okinawa rather than be brutalized by the invaders. https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/history/japanese-mass-suicides/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHF-23 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 It is very far from settled, and over time has been considered by historians less and less likely, that Japanese leadership would have kept fighting and forced a costly invasion of the home islands in the situation they were in prior to the atomic attacks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, SH Panda said: There's evidence the Japanese were more turned by Russia joining the war than they were by the nuclear attacks which increasingly look unecessary. Well, they started it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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