Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran/Lebanon)

[DeeTillEhDeh]

8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Your quote sounds straight out of the Old Testament or Torah, all that smiting. 

Hamas have updated their manifesto:

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/hamas-2017.pdf

It wasn't an update though -the 1988 charter was not replaced formally by the 2017 document. Hamas officials expressed concern at the time that such a step could upset the group’s hard-line base, particularly in Gaza. Instead, the two documents continue to exist side by side, with Hamas referring to the new one as more relevant.

Ultimately Hamas are an antisemitic organisation.

That all said, it in no way excuses the over-the-top retaliation by the Israeli government.

Edited October 15, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Ewanandmoreagain]

On 14/10/2023 at 06:42, orfc said:

Well, the Israelis are trying to give fair warning so a) b) don't apply. Given Gaza has one of the highest birth rates in the world and has doubled it's population in 20 years c) d) don't apply and I haven't heard about them doing a Russia and kidnapping kids wholesale so e) doesn't apply.

Is Israel matching the birth rate in Gaza ?

 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Strong "get our people safe then flatten it" energy off the guy tbh. 

Do you blame him ?

[Ewanandmoreagain]

On 14/10/2023 at 01:01, GTee said:

I know nothing about much of this. But who or what is Hamas. Is it a political party. Is there a leader. That's not an 'army' to go to war with. A bit like Al Qaeda was supposedly Osama Bin Laden. Not sure about ISIS. But can you go to war with an undefined enemy, which isn't an army. If Israel go for a 'ground war', who are they shooting?. Do Hamas wear uniforms.

The most powerful nation on earth along with us did a great job after 9/11 in Afghanistan.  Well not really. 

Who knows. An overall tragedy

We did a good job with the Balfour Declaration and dealing with the old Ottoman empire lands

[Bairnardo]

10 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Do you blame him ?

Do I blame him for wanting to carpet bomb an area regardless of military value, effectively indiscriminate killing of any civilian who happens to live there? 

 

Yes mate. Yes I do. 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

22 hours ago, Richey Edwards said:

If absolutely anyone but Israel did that, there would be widespread condemnation and actions taken against them.

Absolute fucking joke that Israel is allowed to do whatever they like with no consequences. 

It has been like that since the nineteen forties

On 13/10/2023 at 03:01, TxRover said:

Are you not, by stating “f**k Israel” also committing the exact same sin that those in power are now doing by tacitly agreeing that Israel can flatten Gaza freely? All of Israel did not cause those, just as all of Gaza/the Palestinians didn’t cause the attack. While I comprehend your excitement, it’s exactly that same sort of short-sighted comment that is being made by wanna be Fascists around the world in the opposite direction.

I think the only way his would stop at any reasonable point is if those in power were made to conduct the attacks personally…risk their own lives instead of civilians and soldiers lives…have to know the fear and terror.

Well there have been a few Palestinian leaders " assassinated " and maybe a couple of Israelis

On 13/10/2023 at 06:21, Freedom Farter said:

2016 interview with Israeli-American author Jeff Halper, speculating on why Israel continues to receive international support: https://inthesetimes.com/article/israel-palestine-occupation-jeff-halper-war-against-the-people.

Israel has emerged as world leader in repressing a troublesome population. If you think about it, Israel is a state of just under 10M people. The Palestinian Territories contain just under 5M people. So Israel manages to repress a population as large as half its own population. That's some feat of repression, made all the more unlikely when we consider 2M of those 10M Israelis are actually Palestinian-Israelis, who don't partake in the repression of the Palestinian Territories. 

 

 

Apologies . It is the increasing population of Palestinian Israelis that is a concern to Israel

On 13/10/2023 at 20:59, coprolite said:

Fair point that Hamas as an organisation won’t negotiate an Israeli state, but Hamas and ordinary Gaza Palestinians aren’t two mutually exclusive immutable blocs. If ordinary Gaza Palestinians don’t join Hamas, there won’t be a Hamas.

Are ordinary Palestinians allowed not to members of Games ?

[MazzyStar]

2 hours ago, sparky88 said:

Israeli people who don't want Gaza flattened should be treasured whatever their reason tbh.

As an aside, there's multiple reasons why destroying Gaza is a terrible idea from an Israeli perspective. It creates martyrs, spoils relationships with other Muslim states, liable for trips to the Hague etc

No Israeli will be near The Hague for the mass murder that is about to be committed against the people of Gaza. 

[coprolite]

Reported airstrikes in southern Gaza now. 

[Trogdor]

45 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Do I blame him for wanting to carpet bomb an area regardless of military value, effectively indiscriminate killing of any civilian who happens to live there? 

Yes mate. Yes I do. 

I read your first post and didn't see him wanting to indiscriminately kill civilians. If anything he didn't want to carpet bomb Gaza because it would kill his family (ie. hostages).

FWIW I think you are expecting a level of rationality that it would be very difficult for someone who's had family members shot and taken hostage to exhibit.

There are plenty of Israelis to challenge and criticise like Netanyahu, his government, coalition partners and supporters. I think the family members of those killed or captured should really be left to their grief tbh.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Trogdor

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I read your first post and didn't see him wanting to indiscriminately kill civilians. If anything he didn't want to carpet bomb Gaza because it would kill his family (ie. hostages).

FWIW I think you are expecting a level of rationality that it would be very difficult for someone who's had family members shot and taken hostage to exhibit.

There are plenty of Israelis to challenge and criticise like Netanyahu, his government, coalition partners and supporters. I think the family members of those killed or captured should really be left to their grief tbh.

I found it very jarring that he was saying he'd prefer not carpet bombing the area until the Israelis who might come to harm were found. It was a very casual reference to carpet bombing a population centre with no mention whatsoever of anything inappropriate about that, except that his people might be caught up. I did mention that its obviously very personal for him, but I cant imagine ever being ok with bombing women and children and I dont think I can really give anyone, grief stricken or not, a pass for being so. 

[Trogdor]

9 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

I found it very jarring that he was saying he'd prefer not carpet bombing the area until the Israelis who might come to harm were found. It was a very casual reference to carpet bombing a population centre with no mention whatsoever of anything inappropriate about that, except that his people might be caught up. I did mention that its obviously very personal for him, but I cant imagine ever being ok with bombing women and children and I dont think I can really give anyone, grief stricken or not, a pass for being so. 

I didn't actually hear the interview so this is all moot. Its not about giving him a pass. The reality is you have no idea what he is feeling. None of us do. I would expect some empathy and leaving the guy to grief rather than attacking him tbh.

I expect we'd all say a lot of things in the heat of the moment if our kids were kidnapped and shot tbh. None of us can actually put ourselves in the guys shoes and sitting in our privileged position and judging the guy by our standards is a bit hypocritical. 

[Donathan]

3 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

I forgot to mention this the other day but on the radio in the car, they had an Israeli guy who has family members among the hostages. Now clearly its raw and personal for him, but his statement was "people are talking about flattening or carpet bombing Gaza, and I just fear for the hostages safety if we were to go down that route"

Absolutely flabbergasted. These c***s don't see the population of Gaza as people. 

 

Yeah, this isn't a great look from you.

 

Poor guy has relatives taken hostage. Of course he wants the enemy to be defeated here.

 

 

[Granny Danger]

Just now, Donathan said:

 

Yeah, this isn't a great look from you.

 

Poor guy has relatives taken hostage. Of course he wants the enemy to be defeated here.

 

 

So “the enemy” are innocent Palestinians?

[Donathan]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

So “the enemy” are innocent Palestinians?

Yes, Palestine and Israel are enemies of one another.

[Bairnardo]

3 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

Yeah, this isn't a great look from you.

 

Poor guy has relatives taken hostage. Of course he wants civilians, women and children bombed in their homes or in fleeing convoys.

 

 

The reality of what we're talking about

[Granny Danger]

Just now, Donathan said:

Yes, Palestine and Israel are enemies of one another.

My question was innocent Palestinians.  How come you are mortified by the slaughter of innocent Israelis, including children, but have no problems with innocent Palestinians, including children, being killed?

[10menwent2mow]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

My question was innocent Palestinians.  How come you are mortified by the slaughter of innocent Israelis, including children, but have no problems with innocent Palestinians, including children, being killed?

It's not really a question of some guy on P&B not having a problem with it. More that most of the international community seem to not have a problem with it. 

[Donathan]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

My question was innocent Palestinians.  How come you are mortified by the slaughter of innocent Israelis, including children, but have no problems with innocent Palestinians, including children, being killed?

You're putting words in my mouth.

 

I'd personally prefer civilian casualties to be minimised but I've got no issue with Israelis and Jews feeling differently. Especially those who have fucking relatives being held hostage.

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, Donathan said:

You're putting words in my mouth.

 

I'd personally prefer civilian casualties to be minimised but I've got no issue with Israelis and Jews feeling differently. Especially those who have fucking relatives being held hostage.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  You’re making statements then avoiding it when being asked to clarify.

Are you aiming to stand for Labour somewhere?  You’d fit right in with Starmer’s approach.

 

[Donathan]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

No one is putting words in your mouth.  You’re making statements then avoiding it when being asked to clarify.

Are you aiming to stand for Labour somewhere?  You’d fit right in with Starmer’s approach.

 

When did I say that I want to see Gaza carpet bombed?

 

All I said is that I've got no problem with the relative of a hostage caring about the safety of Jewish hostages rather than local civilians and that calling this guy a c**t is a poor look.