[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, Ross. said:

If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough.

I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging.

You're a lunatic.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

5 minutes ago, renton said:

It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. 

It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It should be predicated on rehabilitation to the degree that this is possible, and only after that incarceration to protect the rest of society.

You don't want to stop people being Junkies. You want to punish them for being Junkies.

I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Point out one post where it says junkies should be absolved of all blame. Just one post will do.

On a totally unrelated note, do you drink coffee?

Read this thread. There are plenty of posts attempting to direct blame away from junkies. Apparently inherent destructive impulses are the latest to blame.

No.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, renton said:

Almost everyone has inherent destructive impulses, and almost everyone has to a lesser or greater degree a vulnerability to addiction in some form or another. When society leaves people behind, when it denies people a constructive outlet then people tend to spiral into those destructive influences. It literally could be anyone of us at any given time. It doesn't apply to the entirety of the addict population by any means, but weighing policies that help the former even if it means going easier on the latter is by far a more productive approach.

There's always an excuse. If it isn't society, the economy or Thatcherism it's inherent destructive impulses.

Which would be a great name for a metal band.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Nobody has ever said that junkies are blameless. 

Plenty of people on this thread are going out of their way to absolve junkies of blame. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

4 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Tibbermoresaint is absolutely right, we'd be a lot better off if people just stopped doing all the things that causes problems in the world.

At last 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

Of course there is personal responsibility, but we also each have a shared responsibility to each other. That's the foundation of every collective endeavour in human history, from the Church to the Nation State. The space between those two poles is a place where the vulnerable are liable to get crushed, and how we weigh those competing impulses says a lot about us. Indeed, the collective will is a control loop, designed to smooth out the peaks and dips caused by individual behaviour. People who land in a cesspit of their own making should be helped up as far as is possible not just for their sake but for our own. It's in our enlightened self interest to reduce their suffering because it leads to less overall suffering in society and in terms of resources spent.

There is evidence based approaches that bare this out. In the face of that, to want to continue to stomp on these people is not a reasoned judgement on the efficacy of competing responses but a moral judgement based on your revulsion for them.

 

Absolutely we have a shared responsibility to each other. Part of that is treating ourselves and others with respect, which means not being a junkie. 

[What is the point of Labour ?]

2 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

No. That's just what your propaganda box wants you to believe. It is really it that is insulting you by insulting your intelligence.

 

 

 

Or lack of.

Saying that people are too stupid to understand the difference between reality and propaganda isn't insulting them?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, The Gifted Sub said:

 

Genuinely flabbergasted.

 

What do you think causes the problems caused by people taking drugs?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, Moomintroll said:

Renton, there is no point trying to reason with this guy, he is an angry seething mess who just wants to fight everyone around this for reasons that I cannot ascertain.He should have been out of here last night for the disgusting personal attack he made on a poster, if we all ignore him he will eventually go back to the Dundee thread to continually accuse Biggie of being a racist & we can all go back to what passes for normality round here.

Is it sanctimony hour? Already?

[What is the point of Labour ?]

2 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

It is not we who insulteth them, but the propagana weapons in their homes controled by large corporations, in which they believe every utterance from.

You're insulting them right there.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, renton said:

That's asinine in the extreme.

Addiction is primarily a health issue and within reason should be treated as such. People take drugs for a number of reasons, not least because of despair and social isolation. If you don't give people a way out, if you don't give them a reason to engage with society then don't be surprised when they keep digging deeper into that addiction. Some addicts will of course graduate into more and more serious crimes, most will end up in a cycle of petty crime and dependency. There is no one policy that can allieviate the issue in the entirety of the addict population, but we can help a lot more of them than we do, and that starts with stopping punishing them.

Some people in society are more vulnerable for whatever reason, some people in society will always need more attention, more resources applied to them to allow them to achieve a modicum of normality. It's the price we pay for a civilised society. 

We can reduce crimes from addiction, and we can reduce deaths due to addictions, but we won't do it by chucking them endlessly through the criminal justice system.

People are responsible for their own actions. Sometimes those actions have painful consequences. That's tough.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, ayrmad said:

Are you fucking joking, that's why we're in this mess.

No, we're in this mess because people take drugs.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

This poor victim. Obviously it isn't his fault he's a junkie and a thief. How can we help him?

 

https://www-dailyrecord-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/east-kilbride-drug-addict-jailed-17246869.amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQA#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyrecord.co.uk%2Fnews%2Flocal-news%2Feast-kilbride-drug-addict-jailed-17246869

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Your solution is to continue with the current policy that is failing massively then. We'll end it there.

No, not really.

Just now, Dons_1988 said:

Sounds like your groundbreaking technique is to do everything that we're already doing, just do it better.

It's basic stuff. But it needs to be done better.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Did a "junkie" mug you?

Not successfully.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

How do you do that? Pretty sure we make our best efforts to stop people using drugs now, yet still thousands end up using. Tell me what you'd change.

 

 

Better education. More police resources. Better intelligence. Stronger penalties for supplying and using. Stronger penalties for drugs-related crime.

All basic stuff but anathema to some.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, The Moonster said:

If that's what I was advocating I'd be wrong, but I'm not. Plenty studies out there that show helping junkies out of the environment that got them in that hole and giving them opportunities to re-engage with society helps get people out of addiction though.

You want a junkie free society but you don't want to do anything to help junkies stop being junkies. Tell me how we end up junkie free in your world?

 

We do everything we can to stop people becoming junkies.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

7 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Could you point me to the studies which show that leaving people to "help themselves" is the best way of ending drug addiction?

Weird that you want to end "crimes carried out by junkies" but you don't want to do anything to reduce the number of junkies, thus lowering the number of crimes carried out. Is it just the fact that you don't want your tax paying for that? Because your tax pays for worse things than that, such as the wages of 330 Tory MPs.

Can you point me to the studies which show that encouraging people to become junkies is the best way of ending drug addiction?

I've already told you that I want a junkie-free society so how you can say that I don't want to do anything to reduce the number of junkies is beyond me.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

Which other vulnerable members of society should we just leave to get on with it?

 

Junkies aren't vulnerable members of society. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

You're all for stopping people becoming junkies, but you're not for helping the ones who currently are junkies? Very weird stance.

I think they should get the same support as victims of non-junkies crimes 

The ones who are junkies are responsible for helping themselves. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I haven't once said they didn't make a choice, but some poor c**t who's just lost his mother or father in a car crash may well not be in the best frame of mind when they make certain choices. Of course they need to deal with the consequences, but I don't see why they shouldn't be offered support when doing so. Every single junkie isn't someone who just got up one day and decided they were going to be a junkie. 

What I find the strangest is that folk who hate junkies (and a lot of folk really hate junkies) would rather leave junkies being junkies, rather than helping them and trying to stop more people being junkies. 

I'm all for stopping more people becoming junkies. Ideally we'd be junkie-free. 

What support would you give people who are the victims of junkies' crimes?

 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

People don’t wake up one morning with everything in their life perfectly fine and think “I’ll get addicted to heroin today I reckon.”

 

Yes, people make these choices, but a myriad of things lead to these choices. Personal accountability is one thing and to an extent, yes people have to deal with the consequences, but as a society we have (or at least should have) an obligation to protect the most vulnerable people within it, and that definitely includes drug users. Individuals dealing with the consequences of their actions doesn’t, in my view, mean that the rest of us shouldn’t play any part in dealing with the problem.

Do the victims of crimes committed by drug users enter into your thoughts at all? 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

 People have incredibly horrible things happen throughout their lives that drives them to this stuff. 

Enough of this nonsense. People choose to take this stuff. They are responsible for that and the consequences.