Guest WJR Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I see Stewart Gilmour is on the SPL board now, btw. I hope everyone's fences are in order ...Anyway - Spartan's have an unfair reputation for appeals: U-21 outfielders, goalies signed after date of original tie, etc. They equal it all out with Dean Hoskins 'n Kenny Young. Balanced karma. Brilliant HJ - have a good summer. Off to see Basingstoke Town v Pompey tomorrow but that is now way off topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southview Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 An interesting day of developments and video with administrator is certainly worth a look. Of course the administrator is going to ask the SFL to not issue football penalties but that request should fall on deaf ears. Livingston should be deducted 10 points first thing Monday morning and consider themselves fortunate. It will be up to the clubs to decide regarding the movement of an away fixture to a home one for Livi, but if their opponents don't want anything to do with it, then tough. What authorities could do is hand over prize money from Challenge Cup and League Cup games over next fortnight as quickly as possible which will give the administrator some cash to play with until August 15. The Livi fans must put their rightful hatred of Massone to one side for the time being. He is no longer in charge of the club and I am confident the administrator will pick holes in his statement saying that he has invested £500k into Livi. He has done nothing of the sort. The fans need to turn up to games and they need to do some serious fundraising. This isn't about helping a trust gain control or allowing Massone away with it, this is about generating cash that can go towards paying the bills which, in turn, buys the club more time for a deal to be done with whoever wants to buy Livi. As I've consistently stated, I hope the club survives for the benefit of those who love it, pay into it and support it passionately. Good luck in your battle. But the club should be subject to penalties and that means a points deduction. I feel 10 points is a small price to pay, a couple of early wins would have you right back in contention. Rotherham and Bournemout were both deducted 15 points in League Two in England and still survived. There is nothing to suggest Livi would be automatic candidates for the drop. I don't think relegation to the third division is an option at this stage - it was back in May in my opinion. I also don't think promoting Airdrie would be fair. They would be at a severe disadvantage and I can't see too many of their fans being thrilled at the prospect of another season of struggle. So if that means a 9-team first division if Livi go bust, so be it. The SFL's inaction would have helped towards that but the real villain through all of this, we must remember, is Massone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) I will take offence if Livvi get away with this. Get in touch with Stewart Gilmour: there's one going spare in Edinburgh he's past experience of. Brilliant HJ - have a good summer. Off to see Basingstoke Town v Pompey tomorrow but that is now way off topic. Basingstoke eh? I've only ever been to Basingstoke once, visited the Milestones Museum IIRC... To verge back onto a serious point before I switch off for the night (literally and metaphorically) - Livi are quite clearly on the brink, but that shouldn't be an excuse for giving them any competitive advantages like bringing up home games. I suspect they'll not see the season out anyway, tbf... Edited July 24, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior expert Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Very sad to see any club go into administration, but, I can't help feeling a little bit of Karma has prevailed here. Livi cheated, payed a player who had no work permit, and was on their 'commercial' staff, and he then played a part in the goal which relegated Dundee. Livi then went from cowboy to lottery winner to Italian 'businessman', and all in time whilst doing so, relegated Meadowbank to memory. Dundee on the other hand, came out with Dee4Life, which has raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for the club, and is now back on steady footing, with a level headed board, and a reputable financial backer. Dundee recently bought Livi's most prized asset. Would be genuinly sorry if Livi go bust, but wouldn't lose any sleep over it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogster Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Very sad to see any club go into administration, but, I can't help feeling a little bit of Karma has prevailed here.Livi cheated, payed a player who had no work permit, and was on their 'commercial' staff, and he then played a part in the goal which relegated Dundee. Livi then went from cowboy to lottery winner to Italian 'businessman', and all in time whilst doing so, relegated Meadowbank to memory. Dundee on the other hand, came out with Dee4Life, which has raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for the club, and is now back on steady footing, with a level headed board, and a reputable financial backer. Dundee recently bought Livi's most prized asset. Would be genuinly sorry if Livi go bust, but wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I agree with most of your post. As I see it Livi didn't cheat. Kyles and Flynn did. Then the SPL waited and waited until there was no time for an enquiry then granted SPL status to Livi (despite the actions of their cheating puppetmasters). Likewise, Livi will have a guaranteed season in the first because the fixtures are already out and it would be too much hassle to change things. Respect to the punters but if they go then so be it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough diamond Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) But the club should be subject to penalties and that means a points deduction. I feel 10 points is a small price to pay, a couple of early wins would have you right back in contention. Rotherham and Bournemout were both deducted 15 points in League Two in England and still survived. There is nothing to suggest Livi would be automatic candidates for the drop.I don't think relegation to the third division is an option at this stage - it was back in May in my opinion. I also don't think promoting Airdrie would be fair. They would be at a severe disadvantage and I can't see too many of their fans being thrilled at the prospect of another season of struggle. So if that means a 9-team first division if Livi go bust, so be it. The SFL's inaction would have helped towards that but the real villain through all of this, we must remember, is Massone. As one of the Airdrie fans I'd happily struggle in Div 1, as for Livingstons punishment, 10 points isn't enough, last season they payed players wage levels that they knew they couldn't afford, they strenghthened their squad in the New Year transfer window knowing the players wages would go straight onto the Clubs debts to ensure their survival in Div 1, Airdrie could have done the same but didn't, we niavely stuck to a budget that kept us solvent, who said cheaters never win? If Livingston stay in Div 1 rather than get there just desserts, relegation to Div 3, how many other Clubs will be taking the same route? pay wages you can't afford to players you can't afford, strenghthen your squad when you're struggling, keep your Div 1 status, then go into administration, wipe out your debts by paying a fraction of them then carry on. If that's the future of Scottish football, we'd be as well sending it lock stock and barrel to Dignitas in Switzerland to end it's misery now. Edited July 25, 2009 by rough diamond 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghPar1975 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The league should impose a points penalty - but i'll be surprised if they do, or if they do it will probably be suspended Moving fixtures would allow short term cash but could leave Livi with a run of away games at a later point in the season moving the problem elsewhere. If they could move one of the games from the cup weekends it could work but i'm afraid that i'm a firm believer that all teams seasons should start on the same day, not a week apart. Whilst I don't want to see Livi go under I certainly don't think the league should be showing that they will forego any sanctions to help clubs survive. The club has been mismanaged from the top and teams like Airdrie have been dissadvantaged severly by this team living outwith its means and seemingly being allowed to retain its status. Clyde were, and are in financial troubles but i'd be amazed if the league allowed them to start moving fixtures about to get cash and for me they have done more to try and stem the cash losses than Livi ever have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjo player Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 As one of the Airdrie fans I'd happily struggle in Div 1, as for Livingstons punishment, 10 points isn't enough, last season they payed players wage levels that they knew they couldn't afford, they strenghthened their squad in the New Year transfer window knowing the players wages would go straight onto the Clubs debts to ensure their survival in Div 1, Airdrie could have done the same but didn't, we niavely stuck to a budget that kept us solvent, who said cheaters never win?If Livingston stay in Div 1 rather than get there just desserts, relegation to Div 3, how many other Clubs will be taking the same route? pay wages you can't afford to players you can't afford, strenghthen your squad when you're struggling, keep your Div 1 status, then go into administration, wipe out your debts by paying a fraction of them then carry on. If that's the future of Scottish football, we'd be as well sending it lock stock and barrel to Dignitas in Switzerland to end it's misery now. In a nutshell. Forward that post to SFL HQ first thing on Monday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberdeen Cowden Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 In a nutshell. Forward that post to SFL HQ first thing on Monday. Aye couldn't agree more but it will take them another six months to decide what to do next. Everything should have been in place to take action yesterday - even my dog knew this was coming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanJM Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I haven't read all 196 pages of this but would struggle to disagree with at least the last few posts. I do feel sorry for the Livingston fans but the SFL have to be strong and show that situations like this cannot keep occurring. If clubs continue to live outwith their means then we'll be repeating this debate again and again. Thankfully I think most clubs have probably woken up to that fact and are more careful. I'm not sure whether I'd favour the relegation or points deduction route but anything other than one of those options would send the wrong message out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I agree with the last few posts. Of all the clubs in the country surely mine would benefit most from stringent rules being applied. After the chancers we have had in charge we do need to send out a clear message to stop these people coming in to football and making a mockery of things. I'm ready for whatever punishment is handed out. I hope the club and supporters get the chance to show it can be done right. It's taken a while but I think most Livi fans have got the message - the hard way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest penelope pitstop Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Interesting, I knew they were no longer priority and that they weren't happy with the football's football debt ruling but hadn't realised it had been challenged. Wimbledon's administration was 2003 though so pre-dated the law change? The CVA wasn't agreed until 2004 though - however you could be right and the preferred creditor status could have gone in 2003. Here is the case if you are interested. http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean HMRC are very very unhappy about the football creditors rule. In England the FL have introduced new rules effective from 1st July that any club that is in arrears with its PAYE will have a transfer embargo placed on them until they are back up to date. That was actually voted in by the EFL conference of all the Chairmen which shows that the majority of chairmen at least do not want the rogues to get away with it. That strikes me as exactly the right sort of measure and something that football can do to police itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The CVA wasn't agreed until 2004 though - however you could be right and the preferred creditor status could have gone in 2003. Here is the case if you are interested. http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean HMRC are very very unhappy about the football creditors rule. In England the FL have introduced new rules effective from 1st July that any club that is in arrears with its PAYE will have a transfer embargo placed on them until they are back up to date. That was actually voted in by the EFL conference of all the Chairmen which shows that the majority of chairmen at least do not want the rogues to get away with it. That strikes me as exactly the right sort of measure and something that football can do to police itself. Thanks for the link, yes I am interested and I agree entirely with your second paragraph. (And with nearly all of the recent posts about the need to ensure Livi are suitably penalised, in case I may have given any impression to the contrary last night.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbers Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 In the light of these events. surely now is the time for all scottish leagues inc the SPL to completely overhaul the rules to give hard and fast rules regarding this. What i find more disturbing with Livvi is it is the second time in just 5 short years. I just wonder exactly how many decent and honest businesses have and will suffer again because of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I think the SFL should demand that Livingston sacrifice a virgin fan to appease the footballing gods. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbers Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Scary Bear said quote I think the SFL should demand that Livingston sacrifice a virgin fan to appease the footballing gods. Unquote You perhaps Scary 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Scary Bear saidquote I think the SFL should demand that Livingston sacrifice a virgin fan to appease the footballing gods. Unquote You perhaps Scary Preferably a virgin Livingston fan. Burning a Rovers fan would just anger the gods. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingfaetheSooth Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I also agree with the recent posts. The football authorities have to put in place a rigorous assesment of all new football club owners - fit and competence test - coupled with financial checks and assurances - to ensure that no other shysters own our clubs. Anything else is too little too late! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I agree with the last few posts. Of all the clubs in the country surely mine would benefit most from stringent rules being applied. After the chancers we have had in charge we do need to send out a clear message to stop these people coming in to football and making a mockery of things. I'm ready for whatever punishment is handed out. I hope the club and supporters get the chance to show it can be done right. It's taken a while but I think most Livi fans have got the message - the hard way. I panic when Ayr United concede a corner-kick. Even supposing we are 4-0 up and it is the 93rd minute. God knows what it is like for you right now. The financial situation at Ayr has not been all that clever for the last five years. That meant that we had to fight to stay in the Second Division as a part time club with a lot of ex-juniors. Some of them were so bad that they even struggled to get a game when eventually going back to the juniors. On these all-time worst X1 threads a lot of our candidates are from the past few seasons. We have had our share of misery and mediocrity but it now seems like a better option. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 FAO: Any Livingston fans on this thread, doesn't appear to be many. What like was Berlin Ndebe-Nlome who you had on trial? I am guessing useless and he is on trial at Swindon today v Cardiff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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