Livingston - all the threads merged

[RandomGuy.]

9 hours ago, Livi said:

Just have a look at the club accounts last posted. 
 

They're for all to see.  Back of fag packet probably  have a wee look at the note from the directors regards the breakdown.

It's not rocket science. 

There is no directors note in your accounts?

It just says a breakdown like youre on about was given to those involved in the court case?

[Freedom Farter]

Kenny Miller was punted as soon as it became clear that wasn't going to work. Gary Holt, to his enormous credit, stepped aside when he felt he'd hit a brick wall. Both those timely changes came under John Ward, which suggests he has his finger on the pulse. Martindale has said more than once in recent match reviews "maybe I'm the problem?". That shows he has humility and is regularly self-appraising. 

The match against Hearts on January 2nd precedes a natural break in the fixture calendar and I'd imagine Martindale and Ward have set that point as a deadline for if things haven't improved. If the worst does come to the worst, I'd be very happy with Martindale going back to his director of football role. There's only been one truly bad player signing by him, Tom Parkes, who has hardly played yet always been on a high wage. While some duds have been signed, none were or are significant financial drains, as best I can tell. The positive signings have been fantastic, from Pittman to Nouble with Dykes in between.

Simple law of averages would suggest the next 8 results up to and including that Hearts match won't be as bad as these last 6 results have been. For these next 8 matches, though, Martindale needs to make better decisions. I'm actually less annoyed by his tactics and more by his player selection. What he's trying to do can work but only if he picks the correct players.

[thruthenight]

December is massive for this season. 5 home games, County & Saints in there. If we're not on 19 points at least by the winter break then we're in a little difficulty.

It's funny how small the margins are though. If we don't concede last minute against St Mirren, then we're not bottom of the table, and even though we're on a poor run then the calls for Martindale's head are nowhere near as loud.

Not to be one of those happy clappers, but the last 7 seasons we've overperformed, and Martindale is the one constant throughout that. Yes, the squad construction and the team selection this season has been pish. Davie's embarassing determination to sell Nouble in the summer was an early sign that things weren't going to go well on that front (and in hindsight if we'd accepted that rumoured 400k from Killie we'd probably be having a better season), but I don't think the solution is to fire the best manager we've had since Leishman. Bringing Rice in was an admission that things weren't going well, let's at least give that a chance to make a difference.

[thruthenight]

Also, I still believe that the dip in Pittman's form is a massive factor in why we've been shite for the last 10 months. He was the runner who made our limited attack tick, and we haven't been able to find anyone to replicate that in 6 years in the top flight.

[Freedom Farter]

39 minutes ago, thruthenight said:

Also, I still believe that the dip in Pittman's form is a massive factor in why we've been shite for the last 10 months. He was the runner who made our limited attack tick, and we haven't been able to find anyone to replicate that in 6 years in the top flight.

He should be moved to play alongside Holt in the centre mid duo. Ever since he got moved from attacking mid to centre mid in the 21/22 season, he's lost his attacking spark. He's now a ball-winning centre mid, a Gattuso. He should be next to Holt and that opens up an attacking mid role for Stephen Kelly.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[Durnford]

54 minutes ago, thruthenight said:

December is massive for this season. 5 home games, County & Saints in there. If we're not on 19 points at least by the winter break then we're in a little difficulty.

At the risk of being seen as the prophet of doom, looking at the weather forecast, I have serious doubt as to whether Saturday's game will be on - unless we can find some way of warming up the ground.

Maybe the ground covers can do enough if on early but then that means the team are unable to train.

[ATLIS]

4 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Kenny Miller was punted as soon as it became clear that wasn't going to work. Gary Holt, to his enormous credit, stepped aside when he felt he'd hit a brick wall. Both those timely changes came under John Ward, which suggests he has his finger on the pulse. Martindale has said more than once in recent match reviews "maybe I'm the problem?". That shows he has humility and is regularly self-appraising. 

The match against Hearts on January 2nd precedes a natural break in the fixture calendar and I'd imagine Martindale and Ward have set that point as a deadline for if things haven't improved. If the worst does come to the worst, I'd be very happy with Martindale going back to his director of football role. There's only been one truly bad player signing by him, Tom Parkes, who has hardly played yet always been on a high wage. While some duds have been signed, none were or are significant financial drains, as best I can tell. The positive signings have been fantastic, from Pittman to Nouble with Dykes in between.

Simple law of averages would suggest the next 8 results up to and including that Hearts match won't be as bad as these last 6 results have been. For these next 8 matches, though, Martindale needs to make better decisions. I'm actually less annoyed by his tactics and more by his player selection. What he's trying to do can work but only if he picks the correct players.

Come on now, that's just pure revisionism. Any player taking up a wage and not playing or contributing is a drain given the budgets we work with.

Harrison Clark, Harry Panayiotou, Bitsindou, Cancar, Goncalves, Kurtis Guthrie, Kouider-Aissa, Poplatnik, Lokotsch, Stokes, Reilly and Longridge (to an extent). Then you look at the loans of, Djibril Diani, Robby McCrorie x2, Adam Lewis, Ben Williamson, Chukwuemeka and Soto, 

There's a lot of very clear misses that sat out of squads for almost a whole season at a time. That's still wages spent, signing on fees, spaces in the squad gone. That's before we even look at Teto and Lawal who don't even get a game, while one doesn't even have a work permit. Parkes is the worst of the lot given he's chronically injured and had injury issues prior to signing but there's been plenty.

[The Wrong Car]

4 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

Come on now, that's just pure revisionism. Any player taking up a wage and not playing or contributing is a drain given the budgets we work with.

Harrison Clark, Harry Panayiotou, Bitsindou, Cancar, Goncalves, Kurtis Guthrie, Kouider-Aissa, Poplatnik, Lokotsch, Stokes, Reilly and Longridge (to an extent). Then you look at the loans of, Djibril Diani, Robby McCrorie x2, Adam Lewis, Ben Williamson, Chukwuemeka and Soto, 

There's a lot of very clear misses that sat out of squads for almost a whole season at a time. That's still wages spent, signing on fees, spaces in the squad gone. That's before we even look at Teto and Lawal who don't even get a game, while one doesn't even have a work permit. Parkes is the worst of the lot given he's chronically injured and had injury issues prior to signing but there's been plenty.

The majority of that list are fairly cheap punts and signed as squad depth, with only Parkes being signed (and kept long term)to be a key player (replacing Jon Guthrie)

Given we sign about 8 players a season minimum, Martindale's signings over his tenure have tended to be decent. 

[ATLIS]

8 minutes ago, The Wrong Car said:

The majority of that list are fairly cheap punts and signed as squad depth, with only Parkes being signed (and kept long term)to be a key player (replacing Jon Guthrie)

Given we sign about 8 players a season minimum, Martindale's signings over his tenure have tended to be decent. 

If all the signings are cheap, none of them are. The only ones you could say weren't were probably Shamal, Dykes, and probably one or two others that came via compensation. This season alone you've had:

Devlin - Good player but as expected had some time out with injuries
Sangare - Hit or miss, can be really rash at times. Only time will tell if he gets up to speed or flops
Welch-Hayes - Signed but not ready for first team action, could come good but again could just flop
Nottingham - Spent a lot of time out injured, same as above 2.
Teto - No work permit, flat out a terrible signing so far.
Lawal - Signed with great international youth caps but clearly not ready to contribute at all
Lloyd - Signed as cover for Montano when he was out, done absolutely nothing.
 

Can anyone say that any of the signings this summer have been a success so far? I understand that we've had the talk of budgets and our spending power has lessened but it's another year of being backed into a corner. We clearly don't pay enough contributions to make the loan market work effectively at this level either. Is it a lack of connections at this point?

[The Wrong Car]

7 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

If all the signings are cheap, none of them are. The only ones you could say weren't were probably Shamal, Dykes, and probably one or two others that came via compensation. This season alone you've had:

Devlin - Good player but as expected had some time out with injuries
Sangare - Hit or miss, can be really rash at times. Only time will tell if he gets up to speed or flops
Welch-Hayes - Signed but not ready for first team action, could come good but again could just flop
Nottingham - Spent a lot of time out injured, same as above 2.
Teto - No work permit, flat out a terrible signing so far.
Lawal - Signed with great international youth caps but clearly not ready to contribute at all
Lloyd - Signed as cover for Montano when he was out, done absolutely nothing.
 

Can anyone say that any of the signings this summer have been a success so far? I understand that we've had the talk of budgets and our spending power has lessened but it's another year of being backed into a corner. We clearly don't pay enough contributions to make the loan market work effectively at this level either. Is it a lack of connections at this point?

Fair points, however I meant 'cheap punts' in relation to their place in the squad, often as 3rd/4th choice. I doubt you'll ever get players happy to do that for more than 2 seasons, meaning you have to continually buy fairly poor players either from a foreign market, loans or lower league players

This season's problem seems to be we're relying on these cheaper reserve options, such as Kelly and Shinnie for example, rather than the likes of more established players like Omeonga as backup

Edited November 28, 2023 by The Wrong Car

[Troy.1995]

4 hours ago, Durnford said:

At the risk of being seen as the prophet of doom, looking at the weather forecast, I have serious doubt as to whether Saturday's game will be on - unless we can find some way of warming up the ground.

Maybe the ground covers can do enough if on early but then that means the team are unable to train.

Agreed.The Temp forecast for the weekend isn't looking good.Hopefully we act now and give it a chance of going ahead.Surely the players can train on the astro behind the stadium as well as the gym..

[mozam76]

14 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

 

Really? Sorry to interrupt the narration of whatever ejaculation you were having there but what about this is ringing so true?

 

McIlvogue didn’t take over from Wilson. Mcilvogue is this so-called investment the club has been after, the investment OPCCO shareholders were supposedly ‘blocking’ from coming into the club. But it’s here at last!
 

This new ‘investor’ has been here for 2 months now,  he has no money or he hasn’t parted with a penny, and livi fans *know* and *accept* this?

“THIS”

 

What is ringing true for me is that he seems to think, like I do, that you seem to think every post you make on here is like you're some kind of Julian Assange figure, and EVERYONE must be frantic upon reading your "revelations". I, and others, said as soon as McIlvogue's name was mentioned that there was nothing in his background which suggested he had anything LIKE the money needed to clear a seasons losses. I, and others, read EXACTLY the same link as everyone else containing the judgement of Lord Braid, and have severe misgivings about the financial state of the club. 

Just because we don't post it on here ad infinitum, or mock people when we don't get a response, doesn't mean that we're not concerned.

 

[Freedom Farter]

35 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

If all the signings are cheap, none of them are. The only ones you could say weren't were probably Shamal, Dykes, and probably one or two others that came via compensation. This season alone you've had:

Devlin - Good player but as expected had some time out with injuries
Sangare - Hit or miss, can be really rash at times. Only time will tell if he gets up to speed or flops
Welch-Hayes - Signed but not ready for first team action, could come good but again could just flop
Nottingham - Spent a lot of time out injured, same as above 2.
Teto - No work permit, flat out a terrible signing so far.
Lawal - Signed with great international youth caps but clearly not ready to contribute at all
Lloyd - Signed as cover for Montano when he was out, done absolutely nothing.
 

Can anyone say that any of the signings this summer have been a success so far? I understand that we've had the talk of budgets and our spending power has lessened but it's another year of being backed into a corner. We clearly don't pay enough contributions to make the loan market work effectively at this level either. Is it a lack of connections at this point?

Devlin, Sangare and Nottingham have looked good. All three are on their way to being a success, injuries permitting. 

Lloyd and Welch-Hayes were only signed to provide cover although Welch-Hayes has the potential to stay beyond this season if he can force his way into the team.

Lawal and Teto were signed as prospects. You'd have expected little by way of playing time for them this early into their Livi careers. Coming from Nigeria and South Africa, their wages will be very low.

On loans, I think the squad needs another centre forward and I wouldn't be surprised if we look to loan one in January. 

[ATLIS]

15 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Devlin, Sangare and Nottingham have looked good. All three are on their way to being a success, injuries permitting. 

Lloyd and Welch-Hayes were only signed to provide cover although Welch-Hayes has the potential to stay beyond this season if he can force his way into the team.

Lawal and Teto were signed as prospects. You'd have expected little by way of playing time for them this early into their Livi careers. Coming from Nigeria and South Africa, their wages will be very low.

On loans, I think the squad needs another centre forward and I wouldn't be surprised if we look to loan one in January. 

Sangare has been iffy for me so far, far too rash. Nottingham, I can't see how anyone can really say much about him yet apart from that he was injured.

Lloyd was cover yeah, but Martindale talked all summer about signing a first choice RB as Brandon wasn't good enough.  To the point that we've had Nouble, Penrice, Montano, Mackay all play there. 

Are we really in a position to be signing prospects given the talk of budgets etc? They won't be on anything less than minimum wage obviously but I can't imagine they'll be too close to that either.

[Livi]

52 minutes ago, mozam76 said:

 

Just because we don't post it on here ad infinitum, or mock people when we don't get a response, doesn't mean that we're not concerned.

 

I read this and think pot & kettle

You had a good go at mocking me in your last post. If you don't like what i post just ignore it or engage in the debate we're highly unlikely to agree but we all love a good debate without getting into petty name calling.  

Edited November 28, 2023 by Livi

[Livi La Vida Loca]

15 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

On loans, I think the squad needs another centre forward and I wouldn't be surprised if we look to loan one in January. 

Other than Odin Bailey or Julien Serrano have any loans in our return to the premiership actually been really worthwhile? I think it's kind of clear Martindale has avoided loans recently due to the lack of success of previous ones. 

Over the years it's easy to say Martindale has got more signings right than wrong however I think in recent years our signings haven't been as good. This could well be down to increasing budget constraints but there certainly has been an increase in the number of players that just haven't cut it.

As mentioned above the fact Parkes got his contract extended absolutely baffled me.

[LIVIFOREVER]

11 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Other than Odin Bailey or Julien Serrano have any loans in our return to the premiership actually been really worthwhile? I think it's kind of clear Martindale has avoided loans recently due to the lack of success of previous ones. 

Over the years it's easy to say Martindale has got more signings right than wrong however I think in recent years our signings haven't been as good. This could well be down to increasing budget constraints but there certainly has been an increase in the number of players that just haven't cut it.

As mentioned above the fact Parkes got his contract extended absolutely baffled me.

Quick 2 off the top of my head, Kieran (sp) Brown, Sarkic. We've had a few duds though.

[The Wrong Car]

Aye, I'd put Ciaron Brown, Sarkic, and Serrano as the only 3 good loans who contributed over an entire season

Bailey looked decent, however didn't actually contribute much in the way of goals and assist. Given the rest have ranged from forgettable (Lewis, Soto) to atrocious (McCrorie, Chukwuemeka) it's no surprise Martindale generally avoids it as a place to provide squad depth from

In terms of this season, it feels like we've signed a bunch of players who are 'projects' that could come good given time that we no longer have(Sangare, Lawal, Welch-Hayes) and others who are too injured to really judge (Nottingham, Lloyd, Mackay) 

[Livi La Vida Loca]

5 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Quick 2 off the top of my head, Kieran (sp) Brown, Sarkic.

I had completely forgotten about Sarkic probably because I was absolutely devastated when Aston Villa recalled him only for him to not even be in their squad for the majority of the remaining season. 

As for Brown I had again forgotten about him because did he not have 3 loan spells with us? Think the first 2 were disrupted by injury with him finally coming good at the 3rd attempt.

3 minutes ago, The Wrong Car said:

we've signed a bunch of players who are 'projects' that could come good given time that we no longer have(Sangare, Lawal, Welch-Hayes) 

Welch-Hayes is a really odd signing for me as in the statement announcing him Martindale without actually saying it admitted he wasn't good enough to be first choice but at 27 how much is he going to improve? Struck me as a signing purely for cover which I'm not sure we can afford to do but I think it's highly likely we couldn't afford / find a suitable first choice RWB / RB so settled for him as cover to Brandon, Penrice and Montano.

[mozam76]

37 minutes ago, Livi said:

I read this and think pot & kettle

You had a good go at mocking me in your last post. If you don't like what i post just ignore it or engage in the debate we're highly unlikely to agree but we all love a good debate without getting into petty name calling.  

Where did I mock you?