Livingston - all the threads merged

[MB]

Yes, it's called up-shit-creek. You however like to kid yourselves that it's "within our means." It isn't, and deep down you know it.

Jesus H - come into the real world! Airdrie have managed to avoid relegation by deign of league restructuring three times now, to ever dwindling attendances. As for "living within our means", I seem to remember Ballantyne saying they'd have to go part-time at one stage last year - then backtracking on it on the chance they could be kept in Division 1...and of course failing, meaning more money they could ill afford being blown for nothing.

It's time to stop kidding yourselves. One more season's worth of bottom of the table-ville will kill them as sure as it will kill Elgin down in Division 3 - because fans will not go to watch a losing club. Period.

It would be far better letting Airdrie have a season as a winning team - even in a lower league. That is why this decision is so utterly stupid. I'd sooner see one club go kaput and the other gets a chance to restructure and live than two - the more likely scenario with today's decision.

Seems to me the SFL is determined to kill Airdrie by doing to them what their shorter sighted fans think is "a big favour" when it's like giving a diabetic a bloody Mars Bar!

I am not an Airdrie United fan, so quite why you've used words such as 'yourselves' and 'our', only you can tell me. For the record, given how late in the day this decision has been reached I think it would have been better all round if there had been a hefty points deduction for Livingston. This has possibly placed the league programme in a state of flux and has certainly made life difficult for an under-strength Airdrie squad. Airdrie are not in administration and this has everything to do with living within their means. Yes, they've struggled in the first division in recent times but I'm sure Airdrie fans would rather that than go bust chasing an unsustainable dream.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Seems to me the SFL is determined to kill Airdrie by doing to them what their shorter sighted fans think is "a big favour" when it's like giving a diabetic a bloody Mars Bar!

I'm a type 1 diabetic and sometimes a Mars Bar is absolutely essential kit in order to avoid slipping into a coma during hypoglycaemia (which is the only thing likely to kill you in the short term). So, your analogy doesn't really work.

More broadly, you seem to be chewing the carpet with rage at this, but your team is set to "Other". Who do you actually follow, or are you a generalist?

I must admit to being absolutely gobsmacked at the decision but I welcome it. IOt shows that corrupt behind the scenes practices won't be tolerated, such as Livingston's oft-documented practice of spending money they didn;t have and then entering an insolvency process to avoid paying it back.

It's not a pretty situation, however, and the SFL must take the blame for a summer's worth of dithering over the issue, for that. Even to have made this ruling last week- when it was perfectly within their right to do so- would have been better than this.

I will be absolutely *fascinated* to see what the triumvirate's response is. They will be coddled in a meeting at present establishing two things; 1. does an appeal stand any chance of success (the answer, legally, is no) and 2. can the club feasibly be run at third division level- the answer is probably yes, given wages of £20 a week, voluntary backroom/office staff, and a complete re calibration of the relationship with the community.

As others have pointed out, both here and in the third division forum, if they are really in it to save the club, then starting again in the third division shouldn't be a problem. If, as others suspect, the aim all along was to make a quick buck and leave this perennially insolvent franchise high and dry, they will indeed cut their respective losses and Livingston will shortly be joining the list of defunct Scottish clubs.

I agree with Edinburgh Livi on one thing- the dancing shoes merchants are still far too premature. This has a bit more mileage in it yet.

[Toma_BullyWee]

A good half dozen have said it already so don't be shy.

I had assumed this would be the case, but I decided I'd go for it anyway, seeing as I'm so kooky.

[PELE]

We could just attend the games and promise to pay at a later date, with no real intention of ever paying...

That was an excellent shout.

[Savage Henry]

I'm a type 1 diabetic and sometimes a Mars Bar is absolutely essential kit in order to avoid slipping into a coma during hypoglycaemia (which is the only thing likely to kill you in the short term). So, your analogy doesn't really work.

More broadly, you seem to be chewing the carpet with rage at this, but your team is set to "Other". Who do you actually follow, or are you a generalist?

I must admit to being absolutely gobsmacked at the decision but I welcome it. IOt shows that corrupt behind the scenes practices won't be tolerated, such as Livingston's oft-documented practice of spending money they didn;t have and then entering an insolvency process to avoid paying it back.

It's not a pretty situation, however, and the SFL must take the blame for a summer's worth of dithering over the issue, for that. Even to have made this ruling last week- when it was perfectly within their right to do so- would have been better than this.

I will be absolutely *fascinated* to see what the triumvirate's response is. They will be coddled in a meeting at present establishing two things; 1. does an appeal stand any chance of success (the answer, legally, is no) and 2. can the club feasibly be run at third division level- the answer is probably yes, given wages of £20 a week, voluntary backroom/office staff, and a complete re calibration of the relationship with the community.

As others have pointed out, both here and in the third division forum, if they are really in it to save the club, then starting again in the third division shouldn't be a problem. If, as others suspect, the aim all along was to make a quick buck and leave this perennially insolvent franchise high and dry, they will indeed cut their respective losses and Livingston will shortly be joining the list of defunct Scottish clubs.

I agree with Edinburgh Livi on one thing- the dancing shoes merchants are still far too premature. This has a bit more mileage in it yet.

A good post. However, I don't see where this can possibly go. At the very, very best, Livingston will start as a part time team in the third division. In the worst case, they go bust. I don't really see any other options.

[Hotelandywalker]

Do Airdrie United (ridiculous name for Clydebank) have a right to refuse their "invite" into the 1st Division? Just wondering ... before anyone goes all soft on them for their poor treatment

[Nocturnal Groove]

Do Airdrie United (ridiculous name for Clydebank) have a right to refuse their "invite" into the 1st Division? Just wondering ... before anyone goes all soft on them for their poor treatment

They should have that option, although im not sure how that would work with replacing them. It was suggested in a previous post that Brechin as the other playoff team would be offered the place, but should they refuse aswell (was it not mentioned that they did not want to go up as they couldnt afford it?) it really would be a bit of a mess, would they then just go down the whole of the 2nd division table and take the first team that accepts?

[Skyline Drifter]

Well I didn't really see this coming today. I thought it might have been a possibility a week ago but not now. To be honest I remain unconvinced by the argument that direct relegation to the bottom division is a fair punishment for administration anyway. If the club can get itself sorted out (not likely in this case granted) then relegation to the bottom division gives a chance to mount a promotion campaign straightaway and be bouncing back through the league in no time. If they can keep a semblence of the current squad together they will be too good for that division which instantly impacts on the chances of innocent third division sides having a successful season too.

I'd much rather see a points deduction making it extremely likely the club in question will struggle away fruitlessly all season, be relegated anyway and waste a year along the way. A points deduction would also have been a far more practical solution given that we are three days from starting the league season and confusion reigns. I'm surprised.

I can't help but feel the outcome is a result of the general perception both inside and outside the corridors of power of the way the prospective "white knights" have conducted themselves this past week. Starting with the whole "business plan is based on first division or nothing" ultimatum and culminating in this morning's "bond is too high and won't be paid if we're not in the first division" it's been nothing short of attempting to hold a gun to the SFL and its member clubs for days. Bad tactic boys! It may be inconvenient but the SFL has been here for over 100 years and is bigger than Livingston FC. It can live without them too if need be.

The people from Livingston giving it the big "yahoo!" last week when virtually nothing was done would have been better keeping quiet. In fact they'd have been better getting a points deduction handed down a week ago and getting on with it. I doubt much more would have been said.

Sadly we now have a farce for half a dozen sides this weekend at least and quite probably a vacancy in the SFL for next season. Airdrie and Cowdenbeath will compete in divisions they aren't truly equipped for (though I doubt Airdrie are in reality much weaker than the side that took 7 points out of 12 off us last season). First division sides will now have ten sides on an equal footing starting the season rather than the security net of a heavily points deducted Livi propping everyone up

It will be interesting to see what appeal is made if any and what the consequences of that appeal are, especially if it isn't heard before the weekend.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Skyline Drifter

[Hank Scorpio]

Scottish football - What a fucking shambles.

[Skyline Drifter]

They should have that option, although im not sure how that would work with replacing them. It was suggested in a previous post that Brechin as the other playoff team would be offered the place, but should they refuse aswell (was it not mentioned that they did not want to go up as they couldnt afford it?) it really would be a bit of a mess, would they then just go down the whole of the 2nd division table and take the first team that accepts?

Peterhead were also a playoff team last season and lost at the same stage as Brechin (though granted Brechin finished higher up the table in the regular season).

I think we can probably presume that officials at Airdrie and Cowdenbeath were sounded out before the decision was announced. Especially given the chairman of Airdrie is chairman of the committee that made the decision (though I believe he personally declined to be involved in the discussion because of that).

[Nocturnal Groove]

Scottish football - What a fucking shambles.

Gotta love it though

[The Woolshed]

Well I didn't really see this coming today. I thought it might have been a possibility a week ago but not now. To be honest I remain unconvinced by the argument that direct relegation to the bottom division is a fair punishment for administration anyway. If the club can get itself sorted out (not likely in this case granted) then relegation to the bottom division gives a chance to mount a promotion campaign straightaway and be bouncing back through the league in no time. If they can keep a semblence of the current squad together they will be too good for that division which instantly impacts on the chances of innocent third division sides having a successful season too.

I'd much rather see a points deduction making it extremely likely the club in question will struggle away fruitlessly all season, be relegated anyway and waste a year along the way. A points deduction would also have been a far more practical solution given that we are three days from starting the league season and confusion reigns. I'm surprised.

I can't help but feel the outcome is a result of the general perception both inside and outside the corridors of power of the way the prospective "whit knights" have conducted themselves this past week. Starting with the whole "business plan is based on first division or nothing" ultimatum and culminating in this morning's "bond is too high and won't be paid if we're not in the first division" it's been nothing short of attempting to hold a gun to the SFL and its member clubs for days. Bad tactic boys! It may be inconvenient but the SFL has been here for over 100 years and is bigger than Livingston FC. It can live without them too if need be.

The people from Livingston giving it the big "yahoo!" last week when virtually nothing was done would have been better keeping quiet. In fact they'd have been better getting a points deduction handed down a week ago and getting on with it. I doubt much more would have been said.

Sadly we now have a farce for half a dozen sides this weekend at least and quite probably a vacancy in the SFL for next season. Airdrie and Cowdenbeath will compete in divisions they aren't truly equipped for (though I doubt Airdrie are in reality much weaker than the side that took 7 points out of 12 off us last season). First division sides will now have ten sides on an equal footing starting the season rather than the security net of a heavily points deducted Livi propping everyone up

It will be interesting to see what appeal is made if any and what the consequences of that appeal are, especially if it isn't heard before the weekend.

u sure they haven't lost a good few players, such as mcDougall and di giacamo? i cant see them personally being as good this season in division 1

[Savage Henry]

Well I didn't really see this coming today. I thought it might have been a possibility a week ago but not now. To be honest I remain unconvinced by the argument that direct relegation to the bottom division is a fair punishment for administration anyway. If the club can get itself sorted out (not likely in this case granted) then relegation to the bottom division gives a chance to mount a promotion campaign straightaway and be bouncing back through the league in no time. If they can keep a semblence of the current squad together they will be too good for that division which instantly impacts on the chances of innocent third division sides having a successful season too.

I'd much rather see a points deduction making it extremely likely the club in question will struggle away fruitlessly all season, be relegated anyway and waste a year along the way. A points deduction would also have been a far more practical solution given that we are three days from starting the league season and confusion reigns. I'm surprised.

I can't help but feel the outcome is a result of the general perception both inside and outside the corridors of power of the way the prospective "white knights" have conducted themselves this past week. Starting with the whole "business plan is based on first division or nothing" ultimatum and culminating in this morning's "bond is too high and won't be paid if we're not in the first division" it's been nothing short of attempting to hold a gun to the SFL and its member clubs for days. Bad tactic boys! It may be inconvenient but the SFL has been here for over 100 years and is bigger than Livingston FC. It can live without them too if need be.

The people from Livingston giving it the big "yahoo!" last week when virtually nothing was done would have been better keeping quiet. In fact they'd have been better getting a points deduction handed down a week ago and getting on with it. I doubt much more would have been said.

Sadly we now have a farce for half a dozen sides this weekend at least and quite probably a vacancy in the SFL for next season. Airdrie and Cowdenbeath will compete in divisions they aren't truly equipped for (though I doubt Airdrie are in reality much weaker than the side that took 7 points out of 12 off us last season). First division sides will now have ten sides on an equal footing starting the season rather than the security net of a heavily points deducted Livi propping everyone up

It will be interesting to see what appeal is made if any and what the consequences of that appeal are, especially if it isn't heard before the weekend.

An excellent post. I'd imagine the clubs involved - namely Ross County, Arbroath and Cowdenbeath - have as much right to be pissed off with the SFL as well as Livingston. My impression is that an appeal would make Livingston extremely unpopular with the other clubs. But you know the machinations of the SFL as well as anyone. How do you see this ending up?

To be fair, the SFL have clearly listened to their members and the fans in this case.

[Tonsilitis]

Our losses are written off by Golden Casket (which I would presume that is the deal for the sponsorship).

I spoke to our chairman a year ago and he said that the priority of any Chairman is to

1. Ensure the continued existance of the club

2. Put the best team on the park, subject to constraints of the first condition.

This suggests that we do not have money poured into us willy-nilly, and relegation would almost certainly mean part time football if we did not come back up straight away. DDFR gave us two seasons to get from the 2nd to the first, but retained full-time football for another season after that (most likely because we had finished 2nd yet lost out in the play-offs).

Wrong, our losses are not balanced by sponsorship. Morton are a wholly owned subsidiary company of Golden Casket Group, a group of sweetie manufacturing companies which make around £2m annually after absorbing Morton's losses. Douglas Rae is keen to make Morton self supporting but as a full time team outside the SPL, its impossible. Only SPL membership will make a fulltime Morton self funding outside of a season with a decent cup run including a tie against one of the old firm. The same applies to all of the lower league clubs.

Morton are only not in the position of Livingston thanks to a benefactor who genuinely has money. Many Morton fans would do well to remember that!

[DeeTillEhDeh]

They should have that option, although im not sure how that would work with replacing them. It was suggested in a previous post that Brechin as the other playoff team would be offered the place, but should they refuse aswell (was it not mentioned that they did not want to go up as they couldnt afford it?) it really would be a bit of a mess, would they then just go down the whole of the 2nd division table and take the first team that accepts?

Would that not leave Clyde to come back up?

Edited August 5, 2009 by DeeTillEhDeh

[SNECKSTAGGIE]

The one good thing to come out of this decision is that Mr. MacDougall's experience of running a 3rd Division club will now be invaluable!

[Nocturnal Groove]

Would that not leave Clyde to come back up?

Possibly, really not sure how they would work it if Airdrie refused the offer of promotion. Do they stick with the whole playoffs thing first and offer Brechin and Peterhead and then offer Clyde, or do they offer Clyde before Brechin and Peterhead

Or they could just say that Airdrie are up and they have no option to refuse

[Skyline Drifter]

An excellent post. I'd imagine the clubs involved - namely Ross County, Arbroath and Cowdenbeath - have as much right to be pissed off with the SFL as well as Livingston. My impression is that an appeal would make Livingston extremely unpopular with the other clubs. But you know the machinations of the SFL as well as anyone. How do you see this ending up?

To be fair, the SFL have clearly listened to their members and the fans in this case.

I think the SFL misjudged the feelings of its own members a week ago, got it wrong, and in conjunction with the gun to the head tactics of Messrs Rankine and McDougall who clearly thought they were invincible this week, reacted with a knee jerk response to fix the position. I think they should have punished Livi with a points deduction somewhere around about 10 points last week and probably everyone would have been happy enough, enough to keep them just about interested but probably too much for them with meagre playing resources to actually recover and avoid relegation. Other than that I have great sympathy for the SFL which really couldn't have done an awful lot before last week. It can be argued they should have acted more decisively regarding non-payment of wages by a member and perhaps introduced a signings ban before now but short of that, until they entered interim administration no rule had actually been broken. Not paying your bills as they fall due and robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't in breach of any actual SFL rule.

Frustrating as it is for everybody, I'm not sure the SFL could have done things a whole lot quicker.

I've no real idea where it goes from here because the ball is back in Livi's court. They can accept it and that'll be it done. They may or may not go out of business as a result but everyone else will move on. Or they can appeal. If that's to the SFL then it'll probably be heard very quickly but it will fail. There's little chance of the SFL finding it's own decision incompetent and there's little doubt the committee did not, under the rules, act ultra vires (outwith its authority). So what possible grounds are there to appeal to the SFL? None.

I would assume any appeal will be to the SFA on the grounds of severity. Again I can't see it succeeding. An appeal made by Hamilton to the SFA on the same grounds after the League Management Committee docked them 15 points in 2000 failed on the basis that the committee was competent to make the decision, albeit that appeal failed by a 3-2 vote. I'd expect any appeal to the SFA to fail also but it would undoubtedly take time/ Like Hibee Jibee I can't see any reason particularly that the games involved, apart potentially from Livi's own, should be postponed in the meantime. I don't see what in particular is lost by playing them even if they were later annulled, the only problem being the issue of bookings / red cards plus any injuries suffered.

I can't really see what Livi have to gain by any appeal unless their saviours really have some backscratching mates in the appropriate places in the SFA.

[SNECKSTAGGIE]

I've been trying to have a gloat on the Livi Lions site with no success, has it been closed down does anyone know?

[PELE]

At last, a great decision from the SFL.

How pathetic are the statements from Livi about SFL decision being the death knell for the club. Sorry, but they still do not seem to get it. Livi got themselves in this position, nobody else put them there. Poor old McGruther, got it so wrong this time!

Why can't they survive as a 3rd division club? Is it because they are really a big club and do not deserve to be relegated? Poor souls! I think they got off lightly. They should still have a points penalty in the 3rd division. It is hardly fair on the teams in the 3rd division if Livi come in and try to buy their way out of the league ( what, spending money they don't have to do so? Shocking assumption on my part ). They are lucky to be in the 3rd, damn lucky, because teams like Spartan could easily do a better job than the criminals from West Lothian and show them how a club should be run.

I was looking forward to challenging for the title with Forfar and East Stirlingshire, something we could win. Now we are in a league we are ill prepared for at almost no notice, thanks to Livi. The only bonus is that we have much shorter trips in the 2nd division and greater revenue ( I wonder how this affects wages ).

Does anyone know if Livi still have to provide a bond before playing in the 3rd division ( obviously a much lower bond )?

You never know Livi, you may well be begging for Massone to take over again. After all, he has fifty grand burning a hole in his pocket!