The Falkirk FC Thread

[Skyline Drifter]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy1876 said:

Maybe don't comment on other clubs finances if you don't understand them? Operating losses are normal for almost all clubs outwith the premiership and are covered by clubs making additional financial gain either through wealthy owners providing soft loans, player sales or various commercial deals. This is pretty normal running of football clubs so reckon it is you who should get off your high horse honestly. 

The difference here is our current board are wanting to push for fan ownership so that we have more control and say in our club, an initiative not many clubs and certainly few boards have wanted to push for. One which I am grateful they have given us the option of exploring. But with that comes a deadline, because they need to know the income that will be there, otherwise they need to go back to the standard means of running clubs (as other clubs do). That means being able to guarantee that £400k is covered. And with a current average of £12 per month, it is around 2500-3000 members recquired to cover the portion designated for FSS which was £250k, a membership number other fan owned clubs have managed. And considering we had at least 2500 per game last season and are heading for 4000 per home game this season it is not unreasonable. Certainly a challenge and a concern for those who want fan ownership to be given that deadline but trying to lecture on finances is just a bit pathetic when you clearly don't even understand them. 

Jesus wept.

[Springfield]

We’d still be sitting with a one off - centre piece main stand, if it wasn’t for SA/MR, from what I can gather.
Regardless of how you pitch or see these guys, one leg stool, patrons, investors, wealthy fans, and the not so nice names I won’t print. These guys have helped the club significantly and probably more than we will ever be told. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

1 minute ago, Springfield said:

We’d still be sitting with a one off - centre piece main stand, if it wasn’t for SA/MR, from what I can gather.
Regardless of how you pitch or see these guys, one leg stool, patrons, investors, wealthy fans, and the not so nice names I won’t print. These guys have helped the club significantly and probably more than we will ever be told. 

Indeed and back in around 2015, I think, they wrote off (forgave) a few hundred thousand of their loans.

Not much publicised but there was a Note deep in the Accounts confirming what they had done.
That should never be forgotten.

[NavyBlueArmy1876]

A winning team will also generate cash. Our average attendances have been brilliant since we were relegated considering what's been served up on the park with 3,713 in our first season down and and 3,468 last year. 

So far this season

3,682 (Montrose)
3,426 (Peterhead)
3,884 (Queen of the South)
3,689 (Clyde)

But I don't see any reason why we can't get to the 4k mark from 3.5k last season. 500 extra walk up fans will generate £5-10k a game. Every little helps and all that

Edited October 6, 2022 by NavyBlueArmy1876

[Fifes Elite Force]

One of the big mistakes with Dunfermline was the fans not asking more questions at the time on the theme of the ones being asked on here. Getting  angry and responding with "f**k off" or "Maybe don't comment on other clubs finances if you don't understand them?" towards people posing sensible questions even if they are from fans of other teams isnt the way to go about things. Infact if I was a casual poster on here viewing the thread to find out more about the whole proposal I would be put off by that sort of reaction and regard it with a bit of suspicion rather than joining up.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Fifes Elite Force

[Jimmy1876]

Just now, Fifes Elite Force said:

One of the big mistakes with Dunfermline was the fans not asking more questions at the time on the theme of the ones being asked on here. Getting  angry and responding with "f**k off" or "Maybe don't comment on other clubs finances if you don't understand them?" towards people posing sensible questions even if they are from fans of other teams isnt the way to go about things. Infact if I was a casual poster on here viewing the thread to find out more about the whole proposal I would be put of by that sort of reaction and regard it with a bit of suspicion rather than joining up.

In fact I totally agree with you and have been quite open about my concern as well as trying to decipher the finances to get myself a bit more clarity. I absolutely welcome anyone being interested and trying to find out more and in that same post went on to explain the finances/goals/how it works when there is operating losses. What I meant by "don't comment when you don't understand" is when someone is laughing at the club, when they have the facts wrong. Don't think that is unreasonable tbh. 

[HoBNob]

6 hours ago, Back Post Misses said:

I ain’t on any high horse but won’t take lectures from anyone at a club with your track record. Two words Gavin Masterson now f**k off 

Point proven. 

[Fifes Elite Force]

23 minutes ago, Jimmy1876 said:

In fact I totally agree with you and have been quite open about my concern as well as trying to decipher the finances to get myself a bit more clarity. I absolutely welcome anyone being interested and trying to find out more and in that same post went on to explain the finances/goals/how it works when there is operating losses. What I meant by "don't comment when you don't understand" is when someone is laughing at the club, when they have the facts wrong. Don't think that is unreasonable tbh. 

Which part of the post you replied to did you take as "laughing at the club".  Here it is for clarity

"Plan A is obviously that the £400K is raised via FSS (just the 5000 members needed from this month to raise that total by the end of the season) and Patrons. Plan B is some other privately wealthy individuals buying shares, providing soft loans or contributing by some other means. Alongside those is the prospect that the expenditure leads to promotion and significantly increases income for next season.

However, none of that answers what happens if the £400K can't be raised. Is there a credit facility? Will it be bank debt? If not, what then?"

[Zbairn]

56 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Indeed and back in around 2015, I think, they wrote off (forgave) a few hundred thousand of their loans.

Not much publicised but there was a Note deep in the Accounts confirming what they had done.
That should never be forgotten.

There are those who, I believe, were in the MSG who did (and still) have the clubs interests at heart. Pretty clear that SA is one of them.  Without them I don't think we would have a club or certainly not one we would recognise today.

There were others who didn't give a toss as long as they were in the Boardroom. Thank goodness they are now long gone ! 

The biggest mistake the MSG ever made was to appoint a series of "custodians" who they thought would take the club forwards. Unfortunately they continuously backed the wrong people who either lacked what it takes to run a football club, wanted to be Billy Big Baws or just wanted to line their own CV's.

Hopefully these days are behind us !

[Fifes Elite Force]

I havn't really been following all of this too much tbh, so the answers might be on here already (so sorry for asking the same questions if they are already posted). But is this scheme up and running? I think I read the target is 5000 folk is that right? How many have signed up so far?

 

[Jimmy1876]

4 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

Which part of the post you replied to did you take as "laughing at the club". 

To be clear, my response was only a selection of an ongoing conversation between other posters. And I only included part of one single post I was responding to because the aim of my post was to clarify where the facts had gone wrong in terms of FSS needing 5000 members to cover a £400k deficit which is not true. I have to say maybe my post came across as harsh and that is likely because I can't help but get riled up when other clubs come to criticise finances when they themselves have had similar situations but also have facts wrong. So if that is the case will hold my hands up to that.   

[Fifes Elite Force]

1 minute ago, Jimmy1876 said:

To be clear, my response was only a selection of an ongoing conversation between other posters. And I only included part of one single post I was responding to because the aim of my post was to clarify where the facts had gone wrong in terms of FSS needing 5000 members to cover a £400k deficit which is not true. I have to say maybe my post came across as harsh and that is likely because I can't help but get riled up when other clubs come to criticise finances when they themselves have had similar situations but also have facts wrong. So if that is the case will hold my hands up to that.   

Fair enough, no big deal.. We can get defensive about our clubs sometimes.

 

 

[Jimmy1876]

5 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

I havn't really been following all of this too much tbh, so the answers might be on here already (so sorry for asking the same questions if they are already posted). But is this scheme up and running? I think I read the target is 5000 folk is that right? How many have signed up so far?

 

So basically there is an aim to raise £400k to cover an operating loss, this loss has usually been covered by various other means in the past, soft loans, share holders, investment, player sales. However, this new board is trying to make a push for fan ownership and so the goal is to have two fans organisations raise 250k each (to give a £100k flexibility). One of those fan organisations is the Falkirk Supporters Society (FSS). The money must be raised by end of the season, but the board needs to guarantee that and so we need the total figure to be "pledged" or signed up to by the end of October otherwise the shares designated to FSS will have to be sold elsewhere to guarantee the £400k operating loss is covered. Currently FSS had 500 members (before the recent call to sign up) donating on average £12. To cover the £250k designated to FSS we would need between 2500 to 3000 members at an average of £12 per month. There appears to have been an uptake since the call for sign ups both in new members but also in current members increasing their monthly subscription but as of yet not clear exactly how much. Hope that explains it and makes up for my earlier frustration.  

[Guest Brockvillenomore]

4 hours ago, PedroMoutinho said:

It was quite apparent to me from the podcast that the intention is to seek soft loans from Martin Ritchie and Sandy Alexander. 

Alexander was described as a “fantastic fan of the club” which is quite the turnaround from the current bod.

 

The board have a duty to the company and all shareholders. As already explained. 
 

As significant shareholders it’s right and proper MR and SA are involved. If there is any personal issues at large here (either way) I’m sure for the good of the club, they would be set aside. 
 

in reality, this isn’t a turnaround, it looks more like business being conducted in a professional and diligent manner. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Brockvillenomore

[Skyline Drifter]

31 minutes ago, Jimmy1876 said:

In fact I totally agree with you and have been quite open about my concern as well as trying to decipher the finances to get myself a bit more clarity. I absolutely welcome anyone being interested and trying to find out more and in that same post went on to explain the finances/goals/how it works when there is operating losses. What I meant by "don't comment when you don't understand" is when someone is laughing at the club, when they have the facts wrong. Don't think that is unreasonable tbh. 

What you did was basically say it's fine that there is a £400k shortfall in income covering expenses if the fans and / or wealthy shareholders are buying more shares to cover the cash shortfall with share purchases, soft loans, etc. Which is relatively true but a very short term solution and has ramifications for your balance sheet health. You also claimed this is "pretty normal running for football clubs" which it isn't and for those go that route, normally ends badly. You also said wealthy owners can simply "write a cheque" by which you presumably meant donate money since you categorised that differently to "soft loans". Owners donating money to keep a club solvent is incredibly unusual, it's almost always "soft loans". Soft loans unless set up very carefully leave you enormously exposed to the whims of people changing their minds, especially if circumstances change for them or on death when family members, Executors of Wills get involved. It's not a road to go down lightly.

If Falkirk consciously budgeted for a £400k shortfall this year knowing that they could cover it with funding from fans or major shareholders then that's fine but the fact they felt the need to go public with an rallying call last week isn't a great indication that the finance in the background is secure and what happens next season, or the one after, especially if promotion isn't secured? Presumably many of the players contracts and fixed costs are not going to disappear in May. Is there a bottomless pit of background wealthy investors to underwrite this in some manner? As well supported as Falkirk are, expecting 3,000 extra people to contribute £20 per month on top of their ticket entries and everything else, some of whom are presumably kids who don't have their own income, during a time of national recession looks an incredibly optimistic business plan. Fair play if it works. Such plans are usually meant for getting yourself out of unforeseen troubles whilst you cut cloth. They are not normally willfully created by running a budget nowhere near breakeven. I think Hearts went down a similar route but they had Ann Budge picking up the shortfall and ensuring things were covered, and are clearly a far bigger club with a far bigger fan base.

[Guest Back Post Misses]

48 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

Point proven. 

What point? 
You are a Dunfermline fan. Your club has a long history of overpaying - to a far larger extent than Falkirk ever had. Our operating budget is no different than it probably has been for year however we now have no academy to prop it up. 
You on the other hand run up debts north of £12m from memory and paid zero in the pound to creditors 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Back Post Misses

[Dunning1874]

1 minute ago, Jimmy1876 said:

To be clear, my response was only a selection of an ongoing conversation between other posters. And I only included part of one single post I was responding to because the aim of my post was to clarify where the facts had gone wrong in terms of FSS needing 5000 members to cover a £400k deficit which is not true. I have to say maybe my post came across as harsh and that is likely because I can't help but get riled up when other clubs come to criticise finances when they themselves have had similar situations but also have facts wrong. So if that is the case will hold my hands up to that.   

I was using the 5000 as illustrative of the scale of funding needed, ie that's the number of new members you'd need this month at the minimum fee of £10 to raise bang on £400K between now and May through the FSS route. Obviously options are there to raise money by other more realistic means and if those come to fruition you don't actually need £400K through FSS, while some new members will also contribute more than the £10 a month, but it's illustrative of the scale of the amount needing raised. Even a hugely impressive 1250 new members at a tenner this month would only plug a quarter of the gap.

[PedroMoutinho]

16 minutes ago, Brockvillenomore said:

The board have a duty to the company and all shareholders. As already explained. 
 

As significant shareholders it’s right and proper MR and SA are involved. If there is any personal issues at large here (either way) I’m sure for the good of the club, they would be set aside. 
 

in reality, this isn’t a turnaround, it looks more like business being conducted in a professional and diligent manner. 

Come on- many of the current bod and patrons made no secret of the desire to get rid of the MSG (which was shared by most of the fan base).

We are now in a position where the bod are having to go begging the same individuals for cash to keep the doors open. Surely even the most ardent bod supporter would accept that’s for from what was planned.

[Jimmy1876]

15 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

What you did was basically say it's fine that there is a £400k shortfall in income covering expenses if the fans and / or wealthy shareholders are buying more shares to cover the cash shortfall with share purchases, soft loans, etc. Which is relatively true but a very short term solution and has ramifications for your balance sheet health. You also claimed this is "pretty normal running for football clubs" which it isn't and for those go that route, normally ends badly. You also said wealthy owners can simply "write a cheque" by which you presumably meant donate money since you categorised that differently to "soft loans". Owners donating money to keep a club solvent is incredibly unusual, it's almost always "soft loans". Soft loans unless set up very carefully leave you enormously exposed to the whims of people changing their minds, especially if circumstances change for them or on death when family members, Executors of Wills get involved. It's not a road to go down lightly.

If Falkirk consciously budgeted for a £400k shortfall this year knowing that they could cover it with funding from fans or major shareholders then that's fine but the fact they felt the need to go public with an rallying call last week isn't a great indication that the finance in the background is secure and what happens next season, or the one after, especially if promotion isn't secured? Presumably many of the players contracts and fixed costs are not going to disappear in May. Is there a bottomless pit of background wealthy investors to underwrite this in some manner? As well supported as Falkirk are, expecting 3,000 extra people to contribute £20 per month on top of their ticket entries and everything else, some of whom are presumably kids who don't have their own income, during a time of national recession looks an incredibly optimistic business plan. Fair play if it works. Such plans are usually meant for getting yourself out of unforeseen troubles whilst you cut cloth. They are not normally willfully created by running a budget nowhere near breakeven. I think Hearts went down a similar route but they had Ann Budge picking up the shortfall and ensuring things were covered, and are clearly a far bigger club with a far bigger fan base.

Nope did not say it was fine, and again I am very concerned about the finances. What I did say was that it is common and not just at Falkirk because it has been covered through a variety of different means in the past. I agree it is a short term solution and that is why I am glad that the current board are pushing for fan ownership, because memberships are a much more stable financial than soft loans as you have said. But once again, it is not unusual at all and so I don't really get the criticism of that. 

The idea that just because they went public means they are in trouble is just not true, our past boards (as have yours in fact) have been readily criticsed and ridiculed about not being open or clear about the finances and the club operations. This board came in saying very clearly they want to be as open as possible (something many clubs want from their boards) and then get criticised for being open? If anything everything I have said, and am aware of is because the board members went on a public unofficial podcast to explain the situation and I am glad I know about it. 

As for raising the members, it is massively difficult and unlikely to get the full amount covered, as you say. The whole point of giving the October deadline is so that the board then have time to go and find investment elsewhere. But I am at least grateful for the chance of developing fan ownership. 

[Jimmy1876]

22 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

I was using the 5000 as illustrative of the scale of funding needed, ie that's the number of new members you'd need this month at the minimum fee of £10 to raise bang on £400K between now and May through the FSS route. Obviously options are there to raise money by other more realistic means and if those come to fruition you don't actually need £400K through FSS, while some new members will also contribute more than the £10 a month, but it's illustrative of the scale of the amount needing raised. Even a hugely impressive 1250 new members at a tenner this month would only plug a quarter of the gap.

I mean not sure I get the point of that though and that is exactly where my frustration comes in because you state it as fact which just confuses the actual reality. It just isn't what has been asked and largely overscales what is actually required. But yes the gap is massive, and that is why the options were laid out by the board in a podcast so that it was clear what was going to be happening with the club. There is no real reason to make up numbers to dramaticise the already pretty stressful situation in the first place.