sparky88 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Anyone questioning the rigour in the BBC investigation should read Andrew Marr's comments to the Leveson Inquiry today. He said that moving from being a print journalist to a BBC journalist meant he had to find two sources for a story rather than one and was subject to a far higher rigour from the BBC than he was in the print world. I personally think the programme was rather tame in the supposedly explosive allegations it had in it. And it was highly manipulative in presenting its case - with the empty chairs and fake phone call. There were umpteen figures who refused to be on the programme, some far more salient that d&p with regards to ranagers' problems. Print journalism is the best outlet for this kind of investigative journalism but the Scottish press seem incapable/ unwilling to do the most basic analysis of Rangers in this respect - cough* billionaire Craig Whyte. Our only hope is to get more folk from down south like Alex Thomson to take an interest in the case 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellbhoy Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I agree with Cammy35 that something has been over looked but ain't gonna help the bears though "THE AMOUNT OF TAX OWED" it's quantum !. Can't remember exact amount but will go for £50 million as an example ...... as 40% of earnings was deducted for the top bracket earners before the market crashed 2008 ....... so 40% of £50 million is £20 million ! I do feel the media as usual have made a cock womble of the inflated figures to sensationalize and sell papers. Tonight's program ! well wasn't the dynamite it was built up to be but did offer some facts,on who actually got paid on it especially. Well more veggies in the big broth being brewed at the big hoose simmering away at boiling temperatures.How fcuking damning do things need to be ?,there's enough evidence out there and the big beast still draws breath !. Me thinks everyone who can put EVERYONE out their misery and just effing newco the cheating B*stards FFS and be done with it.Then everyone knows what next season holds for everybody. Are they AFRAID to be the one who gave the order to kill the Gers,then having to be person the die hard fans direct their fury at threatening their life's smashing windows. Me thinks they are all hoping the HMRC will be the one to finally close the BIG HOOSE ! FCUKING SHITE FANNY BAW BAGS . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenockRover Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Throw every one of these fcuktards on a lie detector !!! Bloody thing would read like the Japanese earthquake at Fukushima Bloody Murray couldn't keep his eyes in one place for two seconds! Classic truth-bending... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Using the PWC reports on their website I've found the following Rangers wage bill figures: 2001-02 2002-03... £35M 2003-04... £30M 2004-05... £27M 2005-06... £28M 2006-07... £25M 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10... £29M 2010-11 Totalling the BBC's list of the EBT recipients gives £44M (and I think the figure has officially been put at about £47M?). Therefore it appears Rangers were putting about 15% of payments through EBTs and presumably leveraging about ~4/10ths of that... i.e. 6% or so... in extra resources through avoided tax. That's about £1.75M per year extra resources? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey! Ho! Jambo! Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 It pleases me no end, NO END, that Rangers fucked themselves over shite like Dan Eggen who never kicked a ball. Hahahahhahahahhah! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfox Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Paul Murray = Officer Barbrady out of Southpark Nothing to see here, just move along...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Using the PWC reports on their website I've found the following Rangers wage bill figures: 2001-02 2002-03... £35M 2003-04... £30M 2004-05... £27M 2005-06... £28M 2006-07... £25M 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10... £29M 2010-11 Totalling the BBC's list of the EBT recipients gives £44M (and I think the figure has officially been put at about £47M?). Therefore it appears Rangers were putting about 15% of payments through EBTs and presumably leveraging about ~4/10ths of that... i.e. 6% or so... in extra resources through avoided tax. That's about £1.75M per year extra resources? those figures are all the staffing costs not just players. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florentine_Pogen Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Can we now expect a mass suttee by the Succulent Lambs on the burning carcass of Dignity FC ? Chick Faeces, Fatty Traynor, Leggo, Darryl King, Keef "Wee Blonde Poof" Jackson et al........Oh wait a mo........shite dusnae burn........... Edit:- BTW, did I hear Paul Murray right on Newsnight Scotland when he said that Grant Thornton signed off the accounts during his time as a non-exec in the late noughties ? Edited May 23, 2012 by Florentine_Pogen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 D+P hits back Tweet THE following information was given to BBC ahead of the broadcast of tonight's programme: David Grier, who was the engagement partner at MCR, said: "I categorically deny that at the time of the Craig Whyte takeover of Rangers, I had any knowledge that funds from Ticketus were being used to acquire the Club. This accusation is wrong, highly defamatory and betrays a lack of understanding of the facts. "Neither I nor any of my colleagues at MCR provided any professional assistance to Liberty, Wavetower or Craig Whyte, in raising funds, performing financial due diligence, structuring or agreeing the terms of the purchase of the Club from the Murray Group. "Financial due diligence and other work was provided by Saffery Champness, a firm of chartered accountants who specialise in this area, and our primary role was to provide assistance to Liberty Capital in negotiating a settlement and assignment of the debt due to Lloyds Bank. "The reality is that when my concerns about the use of Ticketus funding crystallised over the summer of 2011, I took immediate steps to raise these concerns with controlling directors of Rangers and HMRC. "I had no direct contact with Ticketus prior to the takeover by Wavetower, however we were aware and were party to discussions regarding Ticketus as a recognised source of short term working capital that was used by the Club and that could be a source of such continued funding. These discussions are well-minuted. "At the time there was significant uncertainty surrounding the potential outcome of the 'big' tax case, which could result in the Club being unable to meet a potential liability and therefore face insolvency. As a result we were asked by Liberty Capital in April 2011 to provide advice in writing to them in relation to our view on the possibility of agreeing a time to pay arrangement with HMRC. "At the same time we were also asked to confirm our opinion of what rights a funder of future season tickets would have in the event of an insolvency. This was in contemplation of funding a time to pay arrangement with HMRC. "As we were not aware of the nature and extent of any arrangements for season ticket sales we were unable to provide specific advice without full detail and our letter of 7 April 2011 is clear on this point. "Indeed we state in this letter that we had not had access to documents or knowledge of contractual terms either of any proposed ticketing agreement or proposed purchase from the Murray Group and as a consequence we could not provide further advice without this detail. We did not receive further information and therefore we could not provide further advice on this matter. "At the time of the acquisition, Craig Whyte indicated that he would be able to fund settlement of the big tax case of up to £15 million but we were not involved in the raising of funds or providing corporate finance advice. "We were provided with a copy of a draft email to Ticketus dated 19 April 2011 that mentions the possibility of raising funds, but does not provide any information of quantum or terms of such a proposal. To suggest this email establishes an awareness of Ticketus providing acquisition funding is absurd and ridiculous. "We, along with solicitors acting for the Murray Group and Lloyds Bank, were provided with information from Collyer Bristow to confirm that Liberty Capital had funds at their disposal to both acquire the debt of Lloyds Bank and provide sufficient working capital to satisfy the concerns raised by the independent committee of the Club. The financial forecasts that we had sight of showed the original cash injection to acquire the Club was from Wavetower and not Ticketus. "It is clear now, with the benefit of hindsight, that material information was withheld from us, and others, prior to the acquisition of the Club and, once we discovered the full extent of the funding relationship between Ticketus, Liberty Capital and the Club, we took immediate steps to raise our concern with controlling directors of Rangers and HMRC. "Throughout this process we have acted professionally and provided opinion and recommendations to avoid an insolvency of the Club by outlining alternative courses of action to the directors. We did provide the controlling directors and company secretary of the Club with our written concern that failure to meet their statutory duties could lead to a claim of wrongful trading, however the controlling directors and company secretary always maintained that insolvency could be avoided through the introduction of new capital and/or fundraising with supporters of the Club." Paul Clark, joint administrator, said: "For the BBC to suggest that I deliberately misled or lied to Mark Daly is both grossly insulting and unacceptable to me as an officer of the court. During my conversation with Mr Daly on Feb 22, which was off the record, I said I thought that MCR became aware of the full scale of Ticketus funding in July or August. I gave an honest answer to the best of my recollection as I had not been closely involved in the Rangers takeover work at the time. "For the BBC now to accuse Duff and Phelps of conflicts of interest and unprofessional conduct based on a deep misunderstanding of the true picture is downright irresponsible and defamatory and we will not let the matter rest there. "There is a world of difference between knowing that Ticketus was a potential source of working capital funding for the Club and its new owners (Craig Whyte/Wavetower) - which is our position - and knowing that funding from ticket sales had been effectively used to purchase the Club. The BBC have failed miserably to make that distinction. "At all times during our involvement with Rangers, we have kept HMRC, the Club's largest potential creditor fully informed of developments. These communications included several meetings. When the question of our appointment was considered by the Court of Session on 14 February 2012, HMRC decided to withdraw their application for their own nominees to be appointed as administrators, instead allowing our appointment to proceed. We have continued to keep HMRC fully appraised of our work as Administrators since 14 February." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) It pleases me no end, NO END, that Rangers fucked themselves over shite like Dan Eggen who never kicked a ball. Hahahahhahahahhah! You also wonder why they bothered with some of the trusts (like backroom staff and fringemen). It says that Eggen got £68k via EBT. How much did that save in tax... £20k to £25k? Why bother, frankly, if it was potentially dodgy. Edited May 23, 2012 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 did anyone else see bbc 3 prog where they made gazza look like he was dressed up like the pope seen a few folk going mental about it on twitter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) If it was cheating, then it was cheating. If my crude calculations are correct it suggests Rangers were perhaps leveraging 4%-5% extra wage spending a season via EBTs (i.e. routing 10% of payments through EBTs saving about 4/10ths in tax). That's worse than just using it for Juninho, but it doesn't absolve you entirely. Did Celtic win any trophies while Juninho was at the club? Was it definetely just him? BBC Scotland Investigates wrote to all of the Scottish Premier League's member clubs and asked whether they had ever operated an EBT scheme. Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth £765,000 but the club did not declare the trust payment to the Scottish Football Association or the Scottish Premier League. The payments made to the trust were declared in Celtic's annual report for 2004/2005, but in 2008 the club became aware of an event giving rise to a potential tax liability which was subsequently paid after agreement with HMRC. apparently celtic inherited his EBT from middlesborough and sought advice on it then after he had played 14 times for us the advice came back to pay it up..interesting that this becomes an issue tonight tho given that celtic have freely admitted the situation with junhinio some time ago. Juninho didnt play in the scottish cup, the only trophy they could have taken from us Edited May 23, 2012 by Enrico Annoni 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 You also wonder why they bothered with some of the trusts (like backroom staff and fringemen). It says that Eggen got £68k via EBT. How much did that save in tax... £20k to £25k? Why bother, frankly, if it was potentially dodgy. Greed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 those figures are all the staffing costs not just players. True, but so is the £44M. Nevertheless it might be a partial overestimation, yes. Mut say I thought we were talking bigger %s... albeit £1.75M is still a meaningful sum of 'leveraged' extra spending power, undeniably. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Using the PWC reports on their website I've found the following Rangers wage bill figures: 2001-02 2002-03... £35M 2003-04... £30M 2004-05... £27M 2005-06... £28M 2006-07... £25M 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10... £29M 2010-11 Totalling the BBC's list of the EBT recipients gives £44M (and I think the figure has officially been put at about £47M?). Therefore it appears Rangers were putting about 15% of payments through EBTs and presumably leveraging about ~4/10ths of that... i.e. 6% or so... in extra resources through avoided tax. That's about £1.75M per year extra resources? Guess they didn't kick the arse out of it, but some individuals on the BBC's list took bigger amounts than others, all individuals COULD have taken amounts like Novo did The amounts may not be vital. It's the side contract, particularly for players as that breaches the SFA rules on player registration.. The main contract that is registered with rhe SFA obviously will not say 'refer to Contract B' If the BBC now furnish the SPL and SFA with these contracts, then let's see what the regulators of our game do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Employee Benefit Trusts - £47 million The Big Tax Case - £75 million Rangers Football Club - £1 Graham Spiers' greetin' faced pus on Newsnight Scotland - Priceless. There are some things in life money can't buy. For everything else there's Duff and Duffer. Totally cringed at Spiers parroting the "SPL needs rangers" line when what he means is "pleeeaassseee don't take away half of my source material!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Guess they didn't kick the arse out of it, but some individuals on the BBC's list took bigger amounts than others, all individuals COULD have taken amounts like Novo did The amounts may not be vital. It's the side contract, particularly for players as that breaches the SFA rules on player registration.. The main contract that is registered with rhe SFA obviously will not say 'refer to Contract B' If the BBC now furnish the SPL and SFA with these contracts, then let's see what the regulators of our game do. Oh aye, completely - the potential for allegations of 2nd contracts exists regardless of how much was paid. I was just trying to get a handle on how much Rangers were putting through EBTs basically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedruleFTD83 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 It's taken me a week to write this, several redrafts and some strong coffee, but for what its worth......sent to Tannadice this morning. Dear Mr. Thompson, I do not envy your position as the chairman of the club I have supported for over 30 years and as an integral member of the SPL Board in the matter of the forthcoming vote on SPL sanction and rule changes. I am sure the days have become much longer and darker since you have found yourself torn between what is unquestionably the correct decision on sporting and moral grounds and the possible impact in financial terms. Your family's dedication to Dundee United in both respects was never more evident than when your late father Eddie was vying for control of the club. The outcome of the current situation regarding Rangers Football Club has many unknowns which will shape the future of Scottish football for many years to come affecting all member clubs. For Dundee United, a club that is loved by many, I believe it has greater consequences than others. Dundee United are recognised and respected across Europe not only for the teams that have graced the jersey and challenged the greats of football, but also for its fans; rewarded for their sense of fair play by UEFA, something all United supporters are rightly proud of. I have yet to see a greater accolade of this anywhere in world football than the Fair Play Stand at Tannadice. You will be privy to far more information than the ordinary fan and will be aware of the growing discontent amongst all fans of all clubs. Should the SPL clubs ignore these feelings in favour of commercial interests it sends a clear message to hard working patrons about the priorities that drive the Scottish game. Even before a decision is made, the talk of boycotts from fans, including those of Rangers should they still exist in some form, will have an unknown impact. There is no doubt this is a watershed moment for Scottish football. Speculation is rife with very few hard and firm facts being offered that the SPL clubs can base a decision on. Other than the findings of the SFA which must be paramount in any decision making process. The television deal has not been signed, with no confirmation of any proposed alternative offer without Rangers involvement at SPL level. I and many other fans, across a wide variety of forums, cannot see how an informed decision can be made without knowing this. It seems a vote is to take place with assumptions of intangible income from this revenue stream. Dundee United have always been a selling club, that is what the club has done to survive. For years we have watched the best talent at Tannadice leave, usually for a fee considerably less than the players worth and more often than not to the very sides that cream the lions share of the SPL revenue. Selling to survive, becoming less competitive in the process and all the while strengthening the grip on a leveraged system from institutions that have made it abundantly clear in the recent past that they hold no fear of deserting the SPL should the opportunity arise. If Dundee United have to sell our top players to reduce the wage bill and cut the cloth in order to maintain sporting integrity and common moral decency they would not be alone, all clubs, save Celtic, would find the going to be tough over the coming seasons. Many fans are prepared to make that sacrifice and put their hard earned money into helping the clubs through this difficult time. My brother and I have followed Dundee United over many years - into Europe from the highs of Barcelona 87, to countless losing cup finals, in meaningless end of season fixtures. Our love of Dundee United will always remain. Our willingness to support a system that knowingly perpetrated one of the greatest sporting crimes in world football history is now in the hands of you and 10 SPL chairmen. To have a monument to sporting integrity called the Fair Play Stand and fail to act accordingly would be the beginning of the end for Scottish football. I implore you to do the right thing. Yours sincerely xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Well put. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 BBC Scotland Investigates wrote to all of the Scottish Premier League's member clubs and asked whether they had ever operated an EBT scheme. Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth £765,000 but the club did not declare the trust payment to the Scottish Football Association or the Scottish Premier League. So 2 contracts = cheating Fair enough Celtic admitted it, so their results for that season should be expunged fron the records and it'd be fair if the SFA ordered Celtic to have a 20 point deduction to start the new season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonMan Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Totally cringed at Spiers parroting the "SPL needs rangers" line when what he means is "pleeeaassseee don't take away half of my source material!" Of course. Imagine him having to talk about another team! "What's your thoughts on how Kilmarnock will do this season, Graham." "Kil-what-mick? Is that a Rangers newco or something?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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